"European" Mag Release vs Button-On-Grip

[dovedescending]

I don't know the technical terms...

So here's the question. Some little pistols, mostly old Soviet Bloc weapons and the like, have a mag catch on the bottom of the grip, instead of a quick-release button next to the trigger guard. As speed goes, the latter is probably better. (One hand garbs the new mag while the other drops the old one). But say the pistol you have, and like to shoot, has the "European" style release? Has anybody taken the time to drill like crazy with both styles and then compare their speed etc? What kind of problems might one encounter with re-deployment?

The reason I ask is because I like several small pistols for various reasons, all of which have "European" mag catches, and my brother thinks that it's a deal breaker. So really I just want ammunition for a gun debate with him

 

[Sam1911]

The heel release is undoubtedly slower and more fumble-prone. Requires either turning the gun on it's side or feeling under it blindly to locate the release, which must be done with the support hand instead of having that hand occupied in securing the fresh magazine. Pulling or pushing that little button is not a positive motion like the simple press of the "1911-style" release button. And your fingers are actually somewhat in the way of dropping the spent mag when they're on the button.

You've probably noticed that no new production service sidearms feature any kind of mag release except the button under the right thumb. That's one thing most everyone seems to have agreed on.

There are some cool (and also some fairly inexpensive) defensive handguns that do have a heel release (Makarov comes to mind) and they may be of enough interest that one might choose to overlook that flaw.

I'd think of it a bit like a double-action revolver. They have benefits, but reload speed, in the best of situations, isn't one of them.

 

[dovedescending]

I was looking at Maks and the like the other day, and said to myself, now me boy, wouldn't be possible to cobble together a thumb button release for these? A nice bolt, maybe a surplus spring, and judicious use of a Dremel on gun and magazine...

 

[steven58]

Some very high quality pistols have the "heel clip" release system.

While slightly slower to reload, you can still be quite fast with this system with practice. I can reload my P7 fairly quickly without looking. Starting from a 2 hand hold: in one motion my weak hand moves down, thumb hits the release, mag pops down and I strip it out and drop it while moving to the spare mag, grab spare mag, insert and chamber a round.

An advantage of this release system (especially for lefties) is that it's usually much more resistant to accidentally releasing the magazine by bumping your holstered weapon. I have had several occasions over the years where my mag release button pushed against a chair or got squeezed in a seat belt "just right" and popped the mag. This would also be true for pocket holster carry.

If you are going to use the pistol for timed competition with reloads then the heel clip is a disadvantage. For all other situations I think it's a non issue.

 

[dovedescending]

I guess, then, it all depends on frequency and quality of your reload drills. Also where you keep your spare.

 

[usp9]

You've probably noticed that no new production service sidearms feature any kind of mag release except the button under the right thumb. That's one thing most everyone seems to have agreed on.

Walther and Heckler Koch disagree with that statement. So do I.

The European release is more popular in smaller guns, especially pocket guns where the heel release is viewed as being more secure and less prone to accidently loose the mag.

Depending on the design, the particular gun, the heel release can be done very quickly, but the button style is probably the quickest in most guns.

 

[steven58]

Yes, but that would be true of both systems. If I'm carrying my 1911 and my spare mag is in my jacket pocket, the reload is going to be much slower than my P-7 with the spare in a proper mag holder on my belt.

If I'm unlucky enough to find myself on a 2 way range AND I need to reload the first thing I am looking for is cover not speed of reload.

For me the order of importance is:
1) Gun fits me and I can shoot it accurately.
2) Effective caliber.
3) Ease of carry.
4) Speed of reload.

With this in mind, I would prefer to carry my snubbie .38 before I,d carry my .32 auto.

The bottom line is practice as much as you can. Training trumps trinkets.

 

[SwampWolf]

Another advantage of the heel-release is that it's easier and more sure to access and less prone to an accidental release than the side-mounted release in cold weather, especially while wearing gloves.
Regarding releasing a loaded magazine inadvertently, Author Massad Ayoob opined, "...I had found over the years that bulky gloves could sometimes cause a shooter to unintentionally activate a side-mounted magazine release button. This did not occur with a gun that had a butt-heel magazine release..."
Concerning releasing an empty magazine deliberately, Mr. Ayoob advised, "...I found that...with gloves on, the cruder gross motor movements of pushing back the latch with the free hand thumb and ripping the spent magazine out (as done with the butt/heel release) were actually more easily accomplished than finding the magazine release button with a thumb encased in a heavy glove that blunted the sense of touch and limited the thumb's rate of movement..."
In my experience, the location of the magazine release is of small consequence (certainly not a "deal-breaker") because familiarity with the location of either type release and the quick and sure accessing of it is the product of good training.

 

[Dolph92]

My Ruger Mark III has the bottom mag clip I personally prefer a mag button. I like to drop the mag out from under my hand and to be able to drop the mag one handed. As I practice I drop the mag with my firearm hand while at the same time retreiving the fresh mag with the other.

 

[Sam1911]

Walther and Heckler Koch disagree with that statement.

Sorry, sorry... I should have said, "No new serious contenders in the service sidearm market..."

I will say that I strongly disagree with Mr. Ayoob's opinion on which is easier when encumbered by gloves. I do a fair bit of cold weather shooting and would not want to fumble with a heel catch under those circumstances even more than I would not want to fumble with one under decent weather conditions.

Pressing straight in on a button with your thumb is pretty fool proof. Sliding a catch button or hook is less so, IMHO.

Further, bumping the heel of the butt on the ground or a support object, in such a way as to release the mag catch, seems just as likely to occurr as inadvertantly pressing the side-of-frame button. But, again, that's MHO.

If I really liked a certain design, I wouldn't let either be a deal breaker. But I'd have to practice pretty hard to be confident with a heel-release style gun. Certainly to be able to do it quickly in an "adrenaline-pumping" situation.

 

[Vonderek]

WHile not advocating for the heel release, I have inadvertantly activated the mag release on a 1911 pattern pistol while carrying IWB after driving or sitting in a chair. It's disheartening to say the least when you later draw your gun and the magazine falls to the floor in a Buster Keaton kind of way. Upon further reflection, I think the holster I was using had a sweatguard so maybe that factored in.

 

[Fiv3r]

Another vote for it being tougher to accidentally drop your mag.

I carry a P-64 in my back pocket when I can't carry a full sized pistol. I have more than once brushed up against the slide release of my holstered handguns with side magazine releases (i'm a lefty). Not a really big deal, but at least I'm pretty sure that my little pocket pistol is going to be ready to go even after spending the day being sat on pressed up against my chest in a jacket pocket.

Not an advantage really, but they aren't deal breakers for me at all.

 

[David E]

I have inadvertantly activated the mag release on a 1911 pattern pistol while carrying IWB after driving or sitting in a chair. Upon further reflection, I think the holster I was using had a sweatguard so maybe that factored in.

This is due to either a worn mag catch spring, an extended mag release and/or a poorly designed holster.

 

[steven58]

Dave,
I agree with you for right handed deployment. Unfortunately, for us lefties the mag release button is outboard and subject to all kinds of unwanted contact. Combine that with the use of thin grip panels and that mag catch dingus is really swinging in the breeze!

I have modified EVERY auto I have carried by reducing the height of the button and replacing the spring so the pressure to release it is at least 4 X normal.

A nice thing about the polymer pistols Ive owned is how easy it is to re contour the mag catch button. 15 min work with files and sand paper and you are done!

for carry in my winter coat / ski jacket pocket I use an H&K P7 in a Desantis Nemesis that's anchored by one large safety pin. Heel clips can vary in type and effectiveness. The P7 one is large but recessed so it's very hard to activate by accident. that + the de-cocked carry status of the pistol make it a very safe alternative for outer pocket carry.

 

[mljdeckard]

I learned on my dad's Ruger Mk II, so it's very natural to me to use the heel catch. No, it's not my first choice, but I can use them just fine if I need to.

I like to think that it's part of being able to use whatever gun you have in a given situation, keeping a general knowledge of how all handguns work and being able to adapt to them when necessary. No, it's not instant, and not ideal, but it's doable.

 

[joelh]

I have a ruger MK I with the bottom release and that is the one feature I dislike about it. It is awkward and slow. Otherwise that is a near perfect gun

 

[oneounceload]

As a LH shooter, that heel release helps make a gun ambidextrous and that's a good thing. Love that P7 of mine

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Quote:
You've probably noticed that no new production service sidearms feature any kind of mag release except the button under the right thumb. That's one thing most everyone seems to have agreed on.

Walther and Heckler Koch disagree with that statement. So do I.

The European release is more popular in smaller guns, especially pocket guns where the heel release is viewed as being more secure and less prone to accidently loose the mag.

Depending on the design, the particular gun, the heel release can be done very quickly, but the button style is probably the quickest in most guns.

He said service handguns, full size. unless i'm wrong than I would like to see the gun. (btw the VP70 isn't in production anymore if thats what your thinking)

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

One clear advantage of the heel release is that it is completely ambidextrous. Another is on small pocket pistols in tight pockets or holsters - there is much less chance of inadvertently releasing the magazine.

 

[MacPelto]

What's the usual technique for operating a heel release one handed? I've never owned one, and have always wondered.

 

[alienbogey]

I carry a P7 with the heel release and shoot it a lot in the local plate shoots. With practice the heel release is very, very close to as fast as a trigger guard area button release. As my weak hand drops down for the fresh magazine it gets the heel release as it goes by - the weak thumb hits it on its was down with no extra motion of the hand.

The miniscule fraction of a second I might lose compared to the other shooters with button releases I get back (and this is unique to the P7's squeeze cocker) when the magazine is inserted - the slide goes forward as I resume my grip and present, which saves time over those who must slingshot their slides back into battery.

I'm pretty competitive with the button release guys (which is everyone but me) and have even won the shoot a few times with the heel release P7.

FWIW.

 

[RyanM]

One advantage I've heard is that the heel release tensions the magazine upward, while a button just holds it in place. How much of a difference that makes, I don't know. Probably not much.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The heel release is undoubtedly slower and more fumble-prone.

Correct on the first. Not on the second.

 

[Oyeboten]

The original Colt Browning .38 ACP Pistols, and the .45 ACP Model of 1905, as well as the Colt Browning .32 and .380 Autoloaders/Automatics, all had the Magazine Release located in the base of the Receiver.

The Colt Browning Model of 1911 .45 ACP, and, possibly a close prior prototype, then located the Magazine Release up and an on the right side of the Frame, where, when the Pistol is held in the right Hand, the Thumb would have easy access to the Release Button.


Definitely, the latter is more tidy and faster to actuate, needing only the Holding hand to remain as it is, for one's Thumb to reach over and release the Magazine, and readily done without shifting one's hold on the Pistol.


The Magazine Release when in the base of the Receiver, is usually dealt with by one's other Hand, holding the Pistol sideways or however, to do so.

Possibly the earlier method is less prone to inadvertent release.


I like both methods, but, the M1911 'Button' is the most appealing to me for ease, speed, and simplicity to actuate one-Handed.


If one's left hand were out of commission, a Magazine Release located in the base of the Receiver would likely be more of a hassle than the side Button kind...but one could get on with either, of course.


Edit:


Meant to say..."...up and on the LEFT side of the Frame"


Lol...


Oye...

Sorry...

 

[Guns and more]

Requires either turning the gun on it's side or feeling under it blindly to locate the release, which must be done with the support hand instead of having that hand occupied in securing the fresh magazine. Pulling or pushing that little button is not a positive motion like the simple press of the "1911-style" release button.

Simple press of the button? No way. I don't have a single firearm where the button is "Just right". I always have to rotate the gun to my left. Not to mention holster makers sometimes refuse to have leather in the button area. (I know).
And how many folks have lost magazines by accidentally bumping the firearm?
To me, the best design is the H&K P-30, where the mag release is built into the trigger guard. Take your finger off the trigger, press down on the trigger guard, and plop, out falls the magazine.
I have an H&K model 4 with the heel release, and after you get used to it, it's fine. Use your left thumb on the release as you hook your left index finger on the mag, and out it comes.
(Yes, it does take two hands.)