Extending Magazine Release Button - Sig P365/X/XL/SAS

[Alllen Bundy]

Continuing from:
My Journey From Sig P365 to P365X and Modifications Beyond
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-modifications-beyond.891955/#post-11996270
P365/X/XL/SAS Grip Module Modifications
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/p365-x-xl-sas-grip-module-modifications.892045/

Extending the Magazine Release Button - Sig P365/X/XL/SAS.

I found that I was not able to actuate the stock magazine release button unless I rotated the P365X in my grip. That seemed like trouble waiting to happen in a defensive situation, where I might accidentally drop the pistol, while trying to do a magazine change.

There are widely differing opinions about extended magazine release buttons. Some believe that they will never have the need to change magazine in a defensive situation. Some people believe that with an extended magazine release button you could accidentally release the magazine. One person suggested moving the magazine release button to the other side of the grip module and actuating the magazine release with your index finger. That might work for some people, it doesn't work with my extra long fingers. For my hands I believe that my best option is an extended magazine release button.

While there are several companies making extended magazine releases, I was a bit short of cash at the time and I decided to try adding JB Weld epoxy to the existing magazine release button to extend it. It worked even better than I expected. I am now able to actuate the magazine release button WITHOUT changing the grip on my P365X. The button extension is protected by my fingers and it would be extremely difficult for me to accidentally actuate the magazine release. This may not be true for everyone's hands, but it is for mine. I did need to modify my holster to protect against accidental contact with the magazine release button.


Stock Magazine Release button on Left, Extended Magazine Release Button on Right.





I removed the magazine release from the grip module. The stock Nitron finish appeared to be sufficiently rough enough that the epoxy would stick to it. I carefully cleaned the magazine release with 99.9% isopropyl alcohol, and set it aside.

I used heat shrink tubing to make a form to use around the stock magazine release button to contain the epoxy while it cured. To make the tubing size just right, I wrapped polyester tape around a steel rod until it was the correct diameter and then shrunk the tubing over it. After the tubing cooled, I slide the tubing off of the rod.

I slid the heat shrink tubing over the button end of the magazine release. I set it upright and added JB Weld epoxy to the mag release button and let it cure overnight. After the epoxy had cured I cut away the heat shrink tubing from the epoxy. I carefully wet sanded the epoxy to shape. Then I installed the magazine release. The dark grey color of the epoxy extension complements well with the stock black grip module and it looks stock.

It's been over 5 months and the epoxy appears to be holding well. If the epoxy ever did break loose, the stock magazine release would still be there and function as normal. I'm NOT yet recommending that anyone else try this just yet, as this is experimental and I am still testing the button.

But there are at least two companies making extended magazine releases made from stainless steel. I would NOT recommend a magazine release made from aluminum as they appear to wear out too quickly.

Vuurwapen SIG P365 Extended Mag Release Button
(https://www.vuurwapen.com/vuurwapen-sig-p365-extended-mag-release-button/)

Armory Craft Extended Magazine button with Checkering - P365, XL, SAS
(https://www.armorycraft.com/product-page/sig-sauer-p365-extended-magazine-catch-with-texture)

I think that it would be worth the $35 for either of these magazine releases.


I recommend that you watch these videos below before attempting any work on the P365/X/XL/SAS.

Best way to remove a Sig P320 or P365 magazine release button


How to remove new and old style P365 striker assembly


SIG Sauer P365 COMPLETE disassembly. Part 1 of 2


SIG Sauer P365 complete reassembly. Part 2 of 2


Next: Adding Weight to the Sig P365/X/XL Grip Module.

 

[JTQ]

I found that I was not able to actuate the stock magazine release button unless I rotated the P365X in my grip. That seemed like trouble waiting to happen in a defensive situation, where I might accidentally drop the pistol, while trying to do a magazine change.

I see this is as managing expectations.

Needing to rotate a gun in the hand to reach the magazine release is common. I expect to do that with every semi-auto pistol I own. It hasn't caused a problem. From a practical standpoint, the inability to reach the mag release with a shooting grip keeps you from inadvertently dropping the mag while you are shooting. Extended mag releases can also cause the mag to drop from contact with your holster or body while carrying the gun.

Here is Shannon Smith on "Pistol Reloads", at about the 2:05 mark, "Basically there is no gun on the planet that I can reach the mag release on without shifting the gun in my hand."



On the other hand, if that works for you, use what you need to make yourself comfortable with the gun.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

......Needing to rotate a gun in the hand to reach the magazine release is common........... "Basically there is no gun on the planet that I can reach the mag release on without shifting the gun in my hand."..........

This I consider a potential problem. But I also realize that not everyone's hands are the same. I would benefit if the trigger on my P365X was at least 3/4" further forward.

In order for me to even actuate the extended release button, I need to move my thumb into a very abnormal position, with the side of my thumb, almost at the 1st joint, pressing on the mag release. My fingers and thumb are protecting the mag release from being accidentally actuated. This may not be the case for someone with smaller hands.

Holsters are a non-issue. You do not exclude the use of an extended magazine release because your holster won't protect it. You either find a holster that protects the mag release button or you modify the holster to protect it. It's no different than finding a holster that prevents accidental access to the trigger.

I watched Shannon's video. I can do a quick mag swap without moving my P365X from the firing position and I can do it blindfolded without losing my grip position. And I'm not even very experienced with handguns. I consider Shannon's method a work-around because he can't actuate the mag release button without rotating the gun in his grip. My method is faster and will allow faster return fire without the chance of dropping my gun because I had to rotate it in my hand.

At time stamp 05:08, Shannon said: ".....As you finish seating the magazine, in one firm seat is all it should take, you don't have to spank the magazine into position. It's just a waste of time."

Shannon has either never inserted a new P365/X/XL/SAS magazine loaded to capacity against a closed slide or he has been smokin' wacky tabacky. The P365/X/XL/SAS has magazines that are notoriously difficult to seat against a closed slide when the magazine springs are new. The p365 12 rd magazine is even worse, as the magazine spring retainer sits 0.042" higher on the floorplate making it even more difficult to load the magazine and insert it against a closed slide.

I have been measuring the magazine insertion force against a closed slide of new Sig 12 rd X/XL magazines loaded to capacity at as high as 35.7 lbs of force. If you don't give the magazine a good hard slap on the bottom, there is a very good chance that the magazine will not be latched properly and may self eject! I will be presenting more information on this in a comparison of Sig 12 rd X/XL magazines to MagGuts modified 12 + 2 rd magazine kits in a future discussion, and also discussing the racking force required against a closed slide.

But again, ergonomics is important. I see people complaining about the position of the slide lock and the manual safety on the P365/X/XL. But for me they are in the perfect position. Massad Ayoob made a video about trigger discipline and the possibility of involuntary trigger finger contraction onto the trigger when being startled. But it doesn't really apply to me because my forefinger is too long to contact onto the trigger in the manner that he described. I can easily wrap the first joint of my forefinger around the front of trigger guard. But this is also specific to the P365X/XL. Massad's recommended trigger finger discipline might be applicable to me with a different pistol.

 

[JTQ]

And I'm not even very experienced with handguns.

My point was managing expectations. The expectation would be that you'd need to flip the gun to reach the mag release, and not that there is something wrong with your gun or with your hand size.

Those experienced with handguns understand that chances are good they are going to need to flip the handgun in their hands to hit the mag release. It is part of normal gun handling. It is not a limitation of just Shannon Smith, nearly everybody does it and nearly every gun requires it.

Max Michel changing mags at about the 2:06 mark.



Since you have a SIG, SIG Academy at about the 1:25 mark



I could probably find video of every Grand Master competition shooter, or every recognized pistol trainer, flipping the gun in their hand to reach and activate the mag release, but I think you get the idea - you not being able to reach the mag release on your gun with a shooting grip is not a problem with you or with the gun. That's how they work.

However, if you've found a modification that makes you more comfortable with your gun of choice, and the modification hasn't caused you any problems, rock on.

 

[alfsauve]

Back to the mag release:

I did the same trick by using heat shrink tubing. The trick is not to shrink it too much above the surface. I made my about twice as high as I needed and tamped the putty down in the "form" to make sure I got a good bond. Of course I had de-greased and roughed up the surface before I started. Shaped it with a file after it cured. IDPA says it can't be higher than 0.2" above the grip as measure at the back side of the release. That's how far I filed it, though it looks a lot higher. Since this is for competition the CompTac holster already has a perfect cutout that doesn't interfere with the release. Shot it last week and reloads were very easy.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Back to the mag release: IDPA says it can't be higher than 0.2" above the grip as measure at the back side of the release. That's how far I filed it, though it looks a lot higher.

Mine started out a lot higher than it is now. Through trial and error I sanded it down bit by bit until I thought it was at the minimum height that I could still actuate it with the side of my thumb. If the epoxy trick didn't work I would have bought one of the aftermarket extended magazine releases.

 

[SwampWolf]

In order for me to even actuate the extended release button, I need to move my thumb into a very abnormal position, with the side of my thumb, almost at the 1st joint, pressing on the mag release.

Same hand/thumb contortions needed for me to eject the magazine on my 365 XL; much different (worse) than the mag releases on most of my other pistols. However, I belong to the school of thought that inadvertently dumping a full magazine due to having an extended release that is too easy to deploy is the worst of the two evils. Too, I'm also of the belief that the need to reload a pistol having a 13 round ammunition capacity is probably not going to be a major concern (needing to clear a malfunction, though, is a different matter).

 

[Alllen Bundy]

The expectation would be that you'd need to flip the gun to reach the mag release, and not that there is something wrong with your gun or with your hand size....... Those experienced with handguns understand that chances are good they are going to need to flip the handgun in their hands to hit the mag release. It is part of normal gun handling. It is not a limitation of just Shannon Smith, nearly everybody does it and nearly gun requires it.

The only thing that those videos prove to me is that the status quo is incorrect. You make yourself vulnerable when you have to shift your grip on the magazine to swap magazines. It's difficult to logically argue otherwise.

When I see the contortions that someone needs to go through in order to swap a magazine, I see an ergonomic problem that needs to be solved. It may be quite typical that you need to shift your grip in order to swap the magazine. But that doesn't make it a good thing or something that you should put up with if you can avoid it. It IS a problem when you need to shift your handgrip in order to swap a magazine. The only question is: "What is the best way to deal with it?"

You can argue that I could accidentally release a magazine with an extended mag release on my P365X. But I defy you to show my how that is possible with my hands on a P365X. My 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers cannot physically reach the magazine button no matter how hard I try. Only my thumb can reach the button and only when I contort it in a very unusual manner that is highly unlikely to happen accidentally. My thumb and first finger protect the button from accidental contact. I don't see an accidental release as a realistic possibility.

I won't rule out the possibility that someone else's hand on a P365X may be able to accidentally release a magazine. But it it far more likely that an accidental magazine drop will occur due to it not being properly latched into the handgun.

But I can see having to change my grip on the pistol leaves me vulnerable to dropping it, especially if someone is trying to physically intervene.

In early 2020 you could not have convinced me that I needed a handgun. The Minneapolis riots last summer changed my world and changed my mind. The morning after the 1st night of rioting I rode my bicycle through what looked like a war zone. They turned Wendy's into a BBQ and it was still burning in the morning. But worse yet, I overheard what these lunatics were saying about how great what they did the night before was. And the mainstream media was trying to gaslight us by calling the riots "Mostly Peaceful Protests" while a building was blazing away in the background. If you are living out in the sticks riots may not be YOUR reality. But living here in Minneapolis it is MY reality.

In a riot situation, needing to do a magazine swap is a very likely possibility. All that it takes is someone to point at you and call you a Nazi and you can have a mod upon you in seconds. This is not theory, it has already happened to people in real life.

 

[Steve762us]

I am now able to actuate the magazine release button WITHOUT changing the grip on my P365X.

My 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers cannot physically reach the magazine button no matter how hard I try. Only my thumb can reach the button and only when I contort it in a very unusual manner that is highly unlikely to happen accidentally.

Al Bundy, which is it?

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Al Bundy, which is it?

I'm not sure exactly what you are meaning. I can move my thumb to actuate the magazine release without changing my grip. My thumb on the P365X isn't actually gripping anything.

 

[danez71]

There are widely differing opinions about extended magazine release buttons.

That's for sure.

I'm all for modifications for benefit and there is no denying that there are many extended mag releases offered for some potentially beneficial reasons. Good job on the mod, btw, looks like it came that way.

However, not being able to reach the mag release has not proved to be a decisive negative as proven by some world class shooters that can't easily reach the mag release.

For me, extending it wouldnt really help much because if I can't reach it then making it taller doesnt help with reaching it, it would only help make it easier to push once ts reached.

My thumb on the P365X isn't actually gripping anything.

Of course it is. Try gripping it with out your thumb and feel the difference.

In early 2020 you could not have convinced me that I needed a handgun.

On the surface, that seems to indicate that you don't have a lot of experience with handguns.


Sometimes status quo isn't a bad thing.

Funding the police and no riots was the status quo until some inexperienced people decided otherwise. Just look at how that's turned/turning out.

I'm not against extending the mag release per say but make sure it's potential benefit is greater than the potential detriments.


What are you basing the following statement on?

The only thing that those videos prove to me is that the status quo is incorrect.

 

[WheelGunMan]

I have stubby thumbs and arthritis in my strong hand thumb to boot, so I moved the mag release to the opposite side of my on all my pistols that I can. Makes it a lot easier for me to drop the mag now. My HK's have the paddle release..that sure is a nice option...definitely prefer it.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

What are you basing the following statement on?

The only thing that those videos prove to me is that the status quo is incorrect.

1. If you need to reload in a defensive situation, that it is the most likely time that someone may try to grab you or your gun. If you are in the process of, or have already rotated your gun in your hand, you are vulnerable to losing control of your gun. You may also need to dodge a knife, a bullet, or move out of the way of something else. It's best if you never need to rotate the gun in your hand.

2. It requires extra time (for me) to complete the magazine swap with the methods shown in the videos.

3. You lose sight of your target using their method of swapping.

Also note that the P320 in the Sig video actually has a magazine release button that protrudes almost as far as mine does.
https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-xfull-size.html
While the P365/X/XL/SAS has a magazine release button that is nearly flush with the grip module.

I also noticed that the guy didn't slap the magazine into the gun. That only works well with a P365/X/XL/SAS when inserting a magazine while the slide is locked back.

Inserting a P365/X/XL/SAS 12rd magazine loaded to capacity against a closed slide can require as much as 35.7 pounds (actual measurement). If you don't give the magazine bottom a HARD slap, there is a strong possibility that the magazine may not properly latch into the grip module and the magazine may drop out. They made a number of compromises with the P365/X/XL/SAS to make it so compact with a large magazine capacity and one of those compromises makes it very difficult to load a magazine against a closed slide.

Most people can close their eyes and touch the tip of their nose with their forefingers. You can train to do a magazine swap just as easily and not need to take your eyes off of your target. I don' t need to look at my gun to do a magazine swap. I can also field strip and reassemble my P365X blindfolded.

For me, extending it wouldnt really help much because if I can't reach it then making it taller doesnt help with reaching it, it would only help make it easier to push once ts reached........... I'm not against extending the mag release per say but make sure it's potential benefit is greater than the potential detriments.

Personal anatomy matters. The tip of my thumb extends 7/8" forward of the front most part of the magazine release button when I am gripping my pistol to shoot.

I could easily pull a trigger placed a full inch further forward than the stock Sig trigger. My ideal trigger location would be where the front of the trigger guard is located. As it is, I need to pull the trigger at a point just before the 1st finger joint. If I try to pull the trigger with the tip of my finger it pushes the barrel to the left. The biggest issue that I have is to keep my thumb out of the way of my trigger finger protruding out the left side.

Part of a short person's process to reach something on the top shelf may include fetching and using a step stool. I can directly reach the top shelf So why would I use a short person's process of using a step stool when I don't need to?

If your thumb can't reach the magazine release with a normal grip on your handgun, then extending the magazine release may not be of much benefit to you. Excuse the pun, but you need to play with the hand with which you are dealt and make do the best way that you can. One size does not fit all.

My thumb on the P365X isn't actually gripping anything.

Of course it is. Try gripping it with out your thumb and feel the difference.

No, I meant what I said. Neither of the two sections of my thumb contact the P365X handgrip. The last part of my hand actually contacts the handgrip is the joint that attaches my thumb to my hand. My thumb is just not in a position to apply any force to the side of the P365X. Squeezing my thumb inward as much as possible still leaves enough room to slide a piece of paper between the P365X and my thumb.

However, not being able to reach the mag release has not proved to be a decisive negative as proven by some world class shooters that can't easily reach the mag release.

I'm not concerned with competition shooters. They aren't dealing with real world defensive situations. Some of them may not have thumbs long enough to reach the mag release button on a P365/X/XL/SAS, so their methods may not be applicable to me.

On the surface, that seems to indicate that you don't have a lot of experience with handguns.

I don't. But most of my career has been spent as an engineering technician. I'm a trained troubleshooter and I look for design mistakes. I proactively look for problems before they occur. You don't need to be an Einstein to figure out that having to rotate a gun in your hand for any reason leaves you vulnerable. I've spent the last year learning about handguns and I've learned a lot. But I've also seen a lot of monkey see monkey do with many people not questioning what they are doing any why they are doing it. I question everything. Sometimes there is a good reason for doing things in a particular manner. Other times it's just because they were taught a particular way. Sometimes all that I hear is opinions and I perform my own testing to determine the truth.

Sometimes status quo isn't a bad thing. Funding the police and no riots was the status quo until some inexperienced people decided otherwise.

But there were problems with the status quo and the riots started BEFORE they tried to defund the police. While I don't generally have issues with the police, some police officers are mentally unfit for the job, some are corrupt, some are willing to enforce unconstitutional laws, and some perform unlawful searches and seizures. Just look up "Civil Asset Forfeiture" for example.

Defunding the police was just the dumbest thing ever, UNLESS you were deliberately trying to destabilize the country, and that may in fact be what some of these Marxists are trying to do. Better police training and other reforms are still necessary, which would require their budget to INCREASE!

On a side note I find it hilarious that the idiots on my local Minneapolis City council, that tried to defund the police, essentially got slapped by a judge that ordered them to HIRE MORE POLICE! ROTFL!

 

[danez71]

Sounds like you have huge hands and a not very flexible thumb. Perhaps you should of got a different gun with a larger grip and longer trigger reach that your hand would fit better. Several out there that are still very compact in size.

In any advent, it seems you got everything figured out on your own.

 

[alfsauve]

Sounds like you have huge hands and a not very flexible thumb. Perhaps you should of got a different gun with a larger grip and longer trigger reach that your hand would fit better. Several out there that are still very compact in size.

I know this comment was for Alllen Bunday, but what I think I found is it's not just the size of the hand and fingers, but which way and how far our fingers bend. Talking about this the past week with another shooter who has the same sized hands as mine. His thumb bends differently from mine. While for both of us every aspect of the P365 fit just perfectly from the grip circumference to the reach to the trigger. It's just my thumb doesn't bend that way. and I have to shift my grip to push the mag release. Going to a larger grip wouldn't help and a smaller grip would only make the other aspects be out of wack. If the release were a 1/2" lower on the frame would help, which of course isn't going to happen. So I need the release to poke out more.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Sounds like you have huge hands and a not very flexible thumb. Perhaps you should of got a different gun with a larger grip and longer trigger reach that your hand would fit better. Several out there that are still very compact in size.

It may not sound like it, but the actual grip is just the right size for my hand, especially with the MagGuts spring kit which extends the magazine 1/8" further out the bottom. Regardless of whether my thumb contacts the grip, the grip is locked solid into my hand and someone would have great difficulty trying to wrench it from my hand.

I keep hearing rave reviews of the Houge grip cover and it makes me wonder if I should try one. But then I think to myself, the grip fits my hand really well, so why bother?

It would be nice if the trigger was further forward, but that might result in some other design compromise that I may not like.

.......It's just my thumb doesn't bend that way. and I have to shift my grip to push the mag release. Going to a larger grip wouldn't help and a smaller grip would only make the other aspects be out of wack. If the release were a 1/2" lower on the frame would help, which of course isn't going to happen. So I need the release to poke out more.

Anatomy matters. For me, if the mag release was any lower, my middle finger could accidentally release it. Any higher and my thumb could accidentally release it. And like you, I just needed the mag release to stick out a little bit further.