ever get flamed for carrying a revolver?

[greener]

've currently have sitting next to me a proverbial "Old School" defensive combination: A Smith and Wesson Model 59 loaded with Federal 80's vintage 9BP 115 grain JHP's.

In my nightstand is a Ruger .357 Security Six loaded with Remington 125 grain JHP's.

Quick, someone drag me into the 21st century!

[/sarcasm]

I'm pretty satisfied with the 20th century: 442 w/lrn; GP100 w/jhp, 1911 with 230gr.

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

Originally posted by bleachcola:
Statistically, a person will never be in a gunfight in their entire life. Doesn't mean you should play those stats and leave your gun at home. But if you do want to talk stats I have to point out that even trained professionals like police officers land less than half of the bullets shot on target. Even for them a 5 shot revolver is just good enough to handle one person. So what happens if you have to shoot more than one person? But you are right in when mentioning accuracy. Training is the most important thing an armed citizen can have. The firearm itself is secondary, so long as it is dependable. That being said, I'd advise anyone to carry whatever they are comfortable with and can depend on.

Now don't go throwing facts into a good nostalgia-fest. I'd really like to see somebody cite some somewhat-current facts for that old "three shots" rule. IIRC, those facts where from some thirty to forty years ago.

Now, I've been known to occasionally carry my Model 27 or Model 28 when I'm out and about, and I feel well-protected. I also tote at least 2 reloads with it, however. I won't venture out without at least 15 rounds for whatever I happen to be toting. Assuming you'll get hits every time you pull the trigger is stupid. Assuming you'll get good hits every time is even worse. I won't even delve further into my thoughts about multiple assailants and those people who don't surf the internet gun sites and don't know that they're supposed to go down with one shot.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by machinisttx:
Yep, the wonderniners and their dependence upon high capacity often causes them to ridicule those who can actually hit something they want to past 3-7 yards, and those who "limit" themselves by carrying a 5 or 6 shot wheelgun (and actually knowing how to use it). Stick to what you know and are familiar with---and pay those guys no attention.

"The second policeman emptied his revolver at Bill without ever hitting him. In return, he nearly severed the lawman's leg with one shot, then walked over and shot him in the head as he tried frantically to reload."

http://ajas29.tripod.com/massbio.html

Gee, somebody forgot to inform the murdered police officer that:

1. WonderWheelie (WW) shooters aren't supposed to miss that many times. After all, they only have six rounds, so they're supposed to "make them count".

2. Since the "average" shooting incident only requires 2.5 rounds, he was clearly above his "quota" after firing and missing with all six rounds.

3. WW shooters aren't supposed to miss that many times, because WW's are "more accurate" than semi-autos.

4. WW shooters are just not supposed to get killed while reloading. That just makes it too obvious that the high cap semi-auto crowd knows what they're talking about.

 

[mavracer]

"The second policeman emptied his revolver at Bill without ever hitting him. In return, he nearly severed the lawman's leg with one shot, then walked over and shot him in the head as he tried frantically to reload."

A: he was out gunned hi powered rifle vs. handgun.

B: what makes you think he would have survived with a hi cap handgun.

 

[pinkymingeo]

Handguns aren't very good for personal defense, just better than nothing. They stink for combat. If you're going into a combat situation, I highly recommend a long gun. I also recommend that you don't engage in combat with a rifle-toting guy when all you have is a handgun. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. On the other hand you can carry a high-cap auto, plenty of extra mags, maybe some brass knuckles or a sap, a large knife, dress in fatigues and walk through town if you like. Have fun.

 

[Defensory]

A: he was out gunned hi powered rifle vs. handgun.

No, it wasn't a "hi powered rifle". It was a military style semi-auto.

B: what makes you think he would have survived with a hi cap handgun.

The killer walked over to the officer as he attempted to reload his revolver, and shot him at near-point blank range.

Common sense tells me that if the officer would've had a high capacity 9mm with 16 rounds, the perpetrator wouldn't have been able to simply walk over and shoot him, because the officer would've still had ten rounds left.

In a shootout with a heavily armed and deranged individual, sixteen rounds beats six, 24-7-365. It's just plain common sense.

 

[greener]

No backup gun? No speed loader for the revolver? No other fire power in the officer's car? A gun fight against a bad guy with a rifle who was close enough to casually walk over and shoot him and the officer wasn't reacting to that? Seems like a bunch of questions hanging out there.

Yep, 16 is better than 6, but....

Most of the LEO's I know carry more than one. My son has his service gun (glock) and an Airweight as a BUG. His patrol car has a shotgun and an M16.

What an LEO may elect to carry and what I elect to carry are based on very different potential use assumptions.

 

[florida1098]

The scenario involved an Officer (NYPD) serving a warrant in a basement in NYC with his female partner. There are many accounts as to the level of uselessness she provided but, the fact was the Officer did engage a perp in a gunfight and ran out of Ammo in his revolver. While reloading, the perp did walk right up on him and proceed to shoot at point blank range. I don't know if he would be alive today if he had not had to reload or had 9 more rounds available, loaded, to gain control of the perp. I do know at the time I had a Model 10 issue from NYPD, and began to seriously feel outgunned simply due to capacity. I will carry nothing else these days except a Glock, on or off duty. I still have revolvers in my nightstand and draw, but when I am out on, or off duty, in my opinion this is the time an encounter is most likely to occur, I want the lightest, highest capacity, and most importantly, reliable tool for defense. If I pulled the trigger on my Glock, I am betting my life it shoots. Now, in 24 yrs as an LEO the only single round that did not go off after I pulled the trigger was on a NYPD service issue Ruger revolver. I don't know or remember why it happened, but that gun was gone the next day. When we went to the range with revolvers we needed to combat reload an empty revolver with either speed strips or speedloaders in a 3 second window. The range Officers would attempt to put pressure on us as might well be the case in a reload scenario. I don't think alot of people know how hard it is to reload with a speedloader, trying to find the hole sequence, all the while keeping your eyes on the approaching perp with intent and possibly shooting at you. Standing at the range window, aiming slowly and shooting single action, or even double, is a lot different than a rapid fire under pressure, save your life scenario. I love revolvers, the same way I love old cars and bicycles, but my opinion, a semi is in everyway superior to a revolver, except maybe when it comes to striking someone physically,(not joking) to subdue them. To all, be safe and I hope we never have to prove ant of these thoughts.

 

[mavracer]

No, it wasn't a "hi powered rifle". It was a military style semi-auto.

sorry, didn't mean to confuse generic terms it was a mini 14 in .223

Common sense tells me that if the officer would've had a high capacity 9mm with 16 rounds, the perpetrator wouldn't have been able to simply walk over and shoot him, because the officer would've still had ten rounds left.

common sense he would have died ten rounds later.

In a shootout with a heavily armed and deranged individual, sixteen rounds beats six, 24-7-365. It's just plain common sense.

NO only one round matters you can't miss fast enough.

BTW I'm dedicating this thread to you Defensory as you are one of the biggest flamers on THR.

 

[Scoutsout2645]

"I find revolvers easier to draw, easier to get a first hit with, easier to point shoot"

The whole revolver vs. semi-auto thing is ridiculous. The "right" gun is one that fits your body, shoots instinctively and allows you to accurately place follow-up shots if necessary. Then you need to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

If you're a civilian CCW, practice drawing from under your zippered winter jacket while carrying a bag of groceries in your left hand. You HD shooters with kids, practice working your triggerlock or safe. Now do it with your eyes closed. Shoot at targets in the dark using a flashlight in your offhand. Both shooters: sprint 100 ft, do 15 pushups (to simulate the adrenaline rush of an armed confrontation) then do these tasks. I would much rather face a fat wheezing videogame hero with a .44 automag that he can't shoot at 5 yards than the disciplined, fit shooter that can empty his .22 revolver, under stress, into the 10 ring at 15 yards in 4 seconds. And to support an earlier post commenting on fitness--if you can't find your holster under your belly or if your arms are skinnier than your barrel it doesn't matter WHAT you carry (we've all seen one at the range...don't be that guy)

Ultimately, pick the strongest gun that you can shoot accurately and quickly, and that fits your hand and shooting needs. What works for me won't necessarially work for you and vice versa. After shooting Berettas, Sigs and S&Ws (all of which are "the best" to someone else) I love my Glock 23 as a great CQB/combat pistol without reservation. Other people may hate it as too big/small/thick/skinny/choose your adjective. Find YOUR gun, get proficient with it, and don't spit on another gun just because it's not YOURS.

On a side note, I see a lot of anti-(either) posts using LEO scenarios. LEOs have different missions/responsibilities than a civilian in a self-DEFENSE situation. Unless you do high-risk things like routinely doing large cash bank drops, you are most likely never going to face multiple attackers who will press an attack instead of flee when confronted with deadly force. Remember the mantra of self-defense: Train; react aggressively; do the most damage in the least time; get the hell outta Dodge. A wheel gun will accomplish this task just as well as a semi-auto.

 

[crebralfix]

Second the notion of differences in Law Enforcement! I'm sure many cops are comforted by the fact that their weapons were picked by a committee of "concerned" politicians who know next to nothing about guns but certainly understand budgets and liability. Just think! The gun they get cost less than the one that they didn't get!

 

[DougDubya]

I love Mavracer, but I especially cherish those who won't flame someone for carrying a revolver.

Mall ninjas, go home and continue duct taping armor plates to your back.

 

[chrisf8657]

People buy what they see being "sold" in gun mags. They buy what they see the Police carry. They buy what the "guy" at the gun store said too.

I can attest to this fact - first gun I bought was a Glock 22, because that's what the Police carry. Fast forward, my Model 60's and SP-101 are what I carry. I have always prefered a revolver to a auto, even though I own several auto's.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Mavracer:
sorry, didn't mean to confuse generic terms it was a mini 14 in .223

The Mini-14 is a military style semi-auto, NOT a "high powered rifle". As usual, I was right and you were wrong.

common sense he would have died ten rounds later.

Sheer conjecture on your part. 16 rounds would've given him a MUCH higher chance of scoring a hit. Plus the perpetrator was a retired librarian who wasn't a very good shot.

NO only one round matters you can't miss fast enough.

^Hogwash. Both LEO's and the military carry significant amounts of extra ammunition with them. Many cops these days carry a loaded semi-auto with two extra full magazines, plus a "New York Reload". Even cops who carry a revolver usually have two extra speedloaders. Because they know MORE is BETTER in a gun fight! Plain common sense.

BTW I'm dedicating this thread to you Defensory as you are one of the biggest flamers on THR.

Mavracer the Pot calling the Kettle black! As is virtually always the case, YOU drew "first blood" in this thread, by attacking me. Your hypocrisy REEKS!

 

[Defensory]

Memory of a Fallen Officer

Published: May 31, 1992

"For police officers on the street, the strongest argument for letting them have semiautomatic weapons is the memory of a fellow officer who died while trying to reload his gun.

Officer Scott Gadell, armed with the standard six-shot revolver, was killed during a 1986 shootout in Queens by a man carrying a 9-millimeter gun that held more than a dozen bullets.

"Every cop knows about Scott," said Officer Robert James Evers of the 71st Precinct in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. "He's an example of a cop who did everything he was supposed to but ended up dying because of second rate equipment."

Leaping for Cover

On a humid June day Officer Gaddell, 22 years old, and his partner chased a gunman in Far Rockaway, Queens. As Officer Gadell reached an alley behind a rooming house, the gunman, crouching in a recessed basement entry, opened fire. Officer Gadell, leaping for the cover of a stoop, returned it.

The gunman fired a total of nine shots from his 9-millimeter semi-automatic gun.

Officer Gadell fired all six bullets in his .38-caliber revolver and was reloading -- and momentarily vulnerable -- when he was struck by gunfire. The officer, who was wearing a bulletproof vest, was shot on the left side of the forehead, just above the ear.

The assailant, 35-year-old Robert Roulston, who was described as a low-level drug dealer, was eventually captured, found guilty of second-degree murder and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

"If he had the 9-millimeter he wouldn't have had to reload," Officer Evers said. "And maybe he'd still be alive.""

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE4D7103BF932A05756C0A964958260

 

[pinkymingeo]

Based on what I read, the bad guys win more gunfights than they lose. An FBI analysis I read a while back suggested that the BG's often get more practice and are more proficient with their weapons than the cops. The reports I've heard of gunfights involving LEO's indicate that their hit ratio is miserable. Hit what you shoot at instead of spraying and praying, and you have a decent chance of surviving a shootout.

 

[mavracer]

Mavracer the Pot calling the Kettle black! As is virtually always the case, YOU drew "first blood" in this thread, by attacking me. Your hypocrisy REEKS!

You are on a thread about people who flame people for carrying revolvers flaming people for carrying revolvers.
Wake up man we're talking about you.

BTW.
A. .223/5.56 is a legal round for NRA high power.

B.I read the facts from the case (not from some counter strike forum.
quoted from Florida SC

The defendant shot at Officer
Johnson, wounding him in the leg (R 2 1 2 4 ) . He then stalked
Officer Johnson into the parking lot, and upon finding him, fired several
more shots into the policeman's body, killing him

 

[Pat Cannon]

Based on what I read, the bad guys win more gunfights than they lose. An FBI analysis I read a while back suggested that the BG's often get more practice and are more proficient with their weapons than the cops. The reports I've heard of gunfights involving LEO's indicate that their hit ratio is miserable. Hit what you shoot at instead of spraying and praying, and you have a decent chance of surviving a shootout.

The disadvantage of have less practice than your opponent can be a big one, true.

The disadvantage of not being the one that starts the gunfight is huge.

 

[Poor East Texan]

Accuracy trumps caliber. Whether Revo or Bottom Feeder.

We are not Police. We aren't Supposed to get into the stuff they do. Ideally we live in condition yellow and stay out of gunfights.

That said, hit center mass or poke 'em in the eye. That'll slow 'em down.

 

[RX-178]

My first time carrying concealed was with a revolver. With the exception of my NAA mini, I haven't carried one since. I always try to have an auto pistol on me when I go out.

And I think the revolver haters are NUTS.

The only reason I carry autos is because I can draw and shoot condition-1 faster and more accurately than with a double action. If I shot that well with a revolver, I sure as hell would carry one.

My weapon holds 12+1 rounds, and I carry a spare magazine, not because I have any misconceptions about needing a ton of ammo, but because I carry one mag of low-pressure ammunition, and one mag of full power ammunition. It's a paranoid habit that came from early fears of hearing damage ever since I started shooting. To this day I still find myself referring to these loads as 'indoor' and 'outdoor' ammo.


Bottom line is, nobody is realistically going to NEED 12+1 rounds in a self defense situation while carrying. Your best weapon is something you can shoot accurately, and shoot first. For me, that weapon just HAPPENS to hold 12+1 rounds of .45ACP. For other people, that weapon happens to hold 5 rounds of .38Spl.

 

[jad0110]

The only reason I carry autos is because I can draw and shoot condition-1 faster and more accurately than with a double action. If I shot that well with a revolver, I sure as hell would carry one.

Good post RX, I can certainly respect your position. I do best with 1911s and wheelies, so that's what I gravitate towards. Buy the hardware that integrates best with your software!

 

[420Stainless]

No. But I've been flamed for stating that five rounds provide enough security for me.

I carry semi most of the time simply because I prefer them for that use. But I don't feel more vulnerable or less comforted in the times I do chose to carry a revolver.

 

[fastbolt]

ever get flamed for carrying a revolver?

Why in the world would I ever care what someone else thought about my choice of firearms?

I extend the same respect to others. I don't commonly question the choices, or make uninvited comments regarding the choices, made by our folks when it comes to off-duty weapons or folks coming through CCW classes.

I grew up shooting revolvers and pistols. The revolvers were mostly single action until I reached my late teens.

My first issued service weapons were revolvers, a M66 4" and then a M686 4". I carried a number of different revolvers as off-duty weapons during the early part of my career.

As a LE firearms instructor I've often wished that the newer & younger LE folks I help train had received the benefits to be gained from learning to properly use a traditional double action revolver. Mastering a DA revolver can often make for some very good foundation skills when it comes to using a handgun.

My commonly chosen off-duty weapon of recent years has once again become a revolver, one or another J-frame, and I suspect it will continue to be so when I retire.

I balance the considerations of ergonomics, capacity, balance, handling & manipulation, controllability, practical accuracy, and ease of lawful concealment (carry method and overall weight) against the anticipated circumstances involved in my everyday activities ... and choose the weapon design/platform accordingly.

Choosing from among the different designs & platforms requires careful consideration of the inherent advantages & disadvantages of each, in the situations & circumstances anticipated, as well as the familiarity, knowledge, skills and abilities of the individual making the choice.

Naturally, my risk assessment & decision-making process is influenced by the experiences, knowledge and training received during my career in LE, and it may differ from a lot of other folks, even other LE. Not surprising.

Not something which keeps me awake at night, either.

 

[jaholder1971]

Memory of a Fallen Officer

Published: May 31, 1992

"For police officers on the street, the strongest argument for letting them have semiautomatic weapons is the memory of a fellow officer who died while trying to reload his gun.

Officer Scott Gadell, armed with the standard six-shot revolver, was killed during a 1986 shootout in Queens by a man carrying a 9-millimeter gun that held more than a dozen bullets.

"Every cop knows about Scott," said Officer Robert James Evers of the 71st Precinct in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. "He's an example of a cop who did everything he was supposed to but ended up dying because of second rate equipment."

Leaping for Cover

On a humid June day Officer Gaddell, 22 years old, and his partner chased a gunman in Far Rockaway, Queens. As Officer Gadell reached an alley behind a rooming house, the gunman, crouching in a recessed basement entry, opened fire. Officer Gadell, leaping for the cover of a stoop, returned it.

The gunman fired a total of nine shots from his 9-millimeter semi-automatic gun.

Officer Gadell fired all six bullets in his .38-caliber revolver and was reloading -- and momentarily vulnerable -- when he was struck by gunfire. The officer, who was wearing a bulletproof vest, was shot on the left side of the forehead, just above the ear.

The assailant, 35-year-old Robert Roulston, who was described as a low-level drug dealer, was eventually captured, found guilty of second-degree murder and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

"If he had the 9-millimeter he wouldn't have had to reload," Officer Evers said. "And maybe he'd still be alive.""

Of those 6 shots that he fired, how many hit the perp before he had to reload?

Just because you can shoot 9 more rounds than a revolver doesn't mean you won't miss another 9 times.

Topeka PD went from Model 66 .357 Magnums to 5906 9mm pistols around 1991. Despite going to a lower recoiling weapon the scores on the range dropped and 1-2 shots fired per street shooting went to 4-6.

Lesson learned: Go with what you can hit with. Wheel gun, semi auto, whiffle ball bat.

 

[papajohn]

My PD training time included the changeover from revolvers to semi's, and I begged the chief to double the practice ammo budget, to no avail. So I asked for more range time for our officers, and he said no. Our revolver qualification scores averaged 92% with the Smith 681's we were issued. When we were done training with our new Beretta 92's, the average was 74%. I asked if those who wanted to could revert back to carrying revolvers, and he said no. To hell with officer safety.........

I shoot both types and own several of each, but in general revolvers are easier to teach and learn, easier to manipulate, and easier to fit to an individual's hand. Anyone who sneers at someone for carrying a sixgun probably ought not mock his ability to hit with it!

Papajohn