Ever shoot an antique?

Status
Not open for further replies.
My "old" stuff isn't that old, I do shoot them.
The 40s P-38 Dad brought back from WWII, matching numbers but shooter grade.
Dad's 56 Marlin 39A, smooth as melted butta.
 
Yeah. If you follow the federal legal definition an assortment of revolvers from the 1880s and 1890s mostly. Most recently a .38 single action S&W circa 1880ish. Fun and surprisingly accurate. I would be happier with an antique .32 safety hammerless than any .25acp mouse pistol I've handled.

If you are less legally minded an even broader assortment of handguns and rifles.
 
The oldest gun that I have fired that would qualify as an antique would be a Springfield Armory Model 1898 Krag Jorgensen. That buttery smooth bolt action still works just fine, especially when I switch it over from being a single shot to being fed by the magazine.
 
I have to assume my Steyr M95 hits as hard now as it ever has :cool:

TCB
 
"Antique" is usually defined to mean a firearm made before Jan,1899, or one that does not use self-contained metallic cartridges.

The oldest one I fired was an 1848 Colt Dragoon/2nd issue. This was at a time when there were no c&b reproductions available. Today I wouldn't do this.

Most pre-1899 guns were made from either brass or iron. Barrels were either made by twisting a strip of iron around a mandrel or drilled through a iron bar that was cold-rolled. Beyond case hardening nothing was heat treated.

Those that remain with us today represent both a part of our national history and firearms history. At this point they are all over a century old. We have them because previous generations preserved them after they became in most cases, functionally obsolete. In my view this generation has some responsibility to pass them on to future ones.

Each time one is fired there is a risk of unrepairable damage. Depending on what the particular gun is this risk may be high or low, but they're is always some risk.

I have had the unfortunate experience of examining a number of hopelessly damaged antiques, some valuable - others not, but all of historical interest.

To be blunt, my opinion of those that would do such a thing would be in language that is not permitted here.
 
Each day that they exist there is some risk. They may be destroyed in a fire, damaged by oxidization, stolen and destroyed through ignorance... given to a buy-back by ignorant family and destroyed by anti-gun zelots ...and so on.

In the face of all of that, the small risk that an antique in good condition will be harmed doing what it was designed to do is minuscule. Further, not using them increases the odds of some types of harm. How many irreplaceable historic guns have been destroyed because the owner never bothered to inspire his children's, or grandchildren's, interest so when he died there was nobody who wanted them. Many. Far more than have been destroyed by fluke accidents caused by use.

You cannot lock history away and expect it to live. It, like everything that lives chiefly in the mind, must be renewed constantly...and when it comes to tools, the only true renewal comes from use. Failing to use otherwise mechanically sound firearms is no different than throwing them in the ocean...yes, they will survive a time there, but not long and not well.
 
Years ago I was at a gun show and had an opportunity to handle an 1898 Schwarzlose pistol. After thanking the dealer for allowing me to handle it, a first time experience for me, I made the comment that one day I look forward to owning one and being able to shoot it. He immediately replied that I should be taken out and shot.

What we had there was a difference of opinion....

He believed that old guns were to be admired and never shot. I believed that most all guns are to be shot and enjoyed. Both beliefs are valid, but this still being a free country, I feel I pretty much have the right to do what I please with my money. I admire the workmanship and history of old firearms immensely but I also believe they are to be enjoyed and used for what they were created for.

Each of us decides what is best for ourselves. I'm willing to take the risk of damaging an old firearms through normal and safe use. If it breaks, so be it. I'll get it repaired or retire it.

That's my opinion.
 
It was also common to bring back war trophies even in the Vietnam days but not sure how legal those were and I do not know anyone personally that did.
Click to expand...

I did - have a SKS, paperwork was simple.
 
"Antique" is usually defined to mean a firearm made before Jan,1899, or one that does not use self-contained metallic cartridges.
Click to expand...

As good a definition as any.


Most pre-1899 guns were made from either brass or iron. Barrels were either made by twisting a strip of iron around a mandrel or drilled through a iron bar that was cold-rolled. Beyond case hardening nothing was heat treated.

Each time one is fired there is a risk of unrepairable damage. Depending on what the particular gun is this risk may be high or low, but they're is always some risk.

I have had the unfortunate experience of examining a number of hopelessly damaged antiques, some valuable - others not, but all of historical interest.
Click to expand...

All true. People just don't understand the primitive process controls and the lack of metullurgical knowledge prior to 1920. Shooting older guns has its risks: Mr. Glen de Ruiter was fireforming brass in his 6mm lee-navy straight pull 1895. Apparently he worked at SARCO and liked these antique rifles.

Bethlehem Township, PA 1 July 2002

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=43726
Yes, I was at the next range over, in a shooting class, about 75 - 80 yards away. One of Glen's shooting buddies came running around the berm, asking us to call 911, saying there was an accident. One of our class members dialed 911, two class members (Rick and Pete) ran to the scene, the instructor gave me a first aid kit and I took it to where Glen was laying. Rick and Pete were doing what they could to help. I tried to give assistance where possible, without being in Rick and Pete's way. Here are Rick's own words about the incident from another list, he tells it the best:

"I was one of the first to arrive at the scene. Glenn was lying on his back, bleeding from a single wound to the center of his forehead. A quick survey of the scene showed his rifle in two pieces, looking like it separated at the receiver ring. I knelt down to Glenn and check for a pulse. I easily found the pulse in the carotid. A couple quick shouts to see if he were conscious were futile and he wasn't breathing so I pulled the jaw down and pushed the tongue down to open the airway. He took in a deep raspy breath. I then moved to the forehead. I gingerly felt the open wound for protruding metal. Finding none, I began to apply pressure to the wound. About this time, Pete showed up and immediately began to assist. For the next 12 minutes, Pete maintained his airway and I kept pressure on his forehead to stop the bleeding. He was unconscious the entire time, most likely from the initial explosion. Pupils were dilated and fixed for the entire period as well. When Pete & I handed him off to
EMS, Glenn was still breathing on his own and had a good heartbeat.

After EMS took Glenn away, I began to examine the scene. Mixed in with the blood was brain fluid. This meant the skull was breached. Since there was no exit wound, this meant that either there was piece of metal inside the brain area or he had been dealt a glancing, ricochet type blow that had cracked the front of the skull. It looked like he lost about 1.5 to 2 pints of mixed fluids.

I looked at the pieces of the rifle. The barrel metal was completely intact, with the expended cartridge still in the chamber (more on that later), and the wood was badly splintered. It didn't take long to see that the receiver had failed. The upper half of the receiver ring was missing as were tops of the rails for about 1-2". Upon closer examination, the metal showed an obvious crystalline fracture, with the outer edge areas of the ring and maybe 1/2" back showing stretching/tearing, rather than crystalline breakage. The missing metal was nowhere to be found, although some wood splinters were recovered. The bolt would not return to battery. I couldn't tell if the bolt had been completely in battery when the round was fired but I am unfamiliar with the Lee so I don't know if it is possible to fire a round when the bolt is out of battery.

I then turned my attention to the barrel. The brass was stuck in the chamber. There was a hole in the brass, in the extractor area. The primer was missing, the base of the cartridge was blackened and slightly bowed out into a convex shape. Surrounding the hole in the brass was obvious flow into the unsupported area of the extractor. The semi-rimmed brass was now obviously rimmed. Obvious, major headspace problem. Obvious, major overpressure situation.

Looking through the barrel, I saw that it was plugged. Obtaining a rod, I slid in down the muzzle until it stopped. Marking the length with my thumb, the obstruction was at or near the end of the chamber. A shake of the barrel was silent. Driving the rod into the barrel to drive out the brass took a few sharp strokes, the first couple feeling like something was wedging in the barrel. After popping out the brass, I inspected the barrel. It was free of bulges and the barrel actually looked quite nice - dark but with strong rifling. The chamber was in good shape as well, with no obvious deformities. Examining the brass, I immediately noticed that the bullet had never left the barrel because I had driven it back into the powder area of the brass when driving it out and that it was what I had felt for the first couple blows. I did not notice any rifling marks on the bullet but could not see it that clearly inside the brass.

I next turned to the shooting table, where Glenn had his box of ammunition. Glenn was apparently testing handloads because he had a few pieces of paper with different loads written on it. I recall them being 30gr or so of IMR powders but don't remember the numbers (I'm not a big reloader) with 100gr and 150gr bullets (Hornady and Speer). I do recall that one of the loads was 11gr Unique. Looking at the ammo in the box, I realized that the fatal shot was his second as there was only one previously expended round. Picking it up, it was obviously deformed as previously described: obvious brass flow into the extractor area, blackened & rimmed base, missing primer, except no hole in the brass. Looking at this first round, I have to wonder how hard it was to extract. It looked like a hammer-beater to me.

And that's as far as I got before the police started to impound everything.

It wasn't until later that I found out that when Glenn was taken to the hospital, x-rays revealed that a piece of metal 40mm on its long side had penetrated the brain, ending its straight though travel at the rear of the skull; destroying his sinus cavity in the process.
Click to expand...
 
What do you think that story is illustrating in relation to this thread?


A shooter was shooting hand loads hot enough to flow the brass enough to "rim" untrimmed brass. That is a risky proposition in ANY firearm. Plenty of brand new modern steel guns have been destroyed by handloaders doing things they oughtn't, and in the process exceeding what their firearm was designed to do.

Was the outcome worse because an antique gun was apparently involved? I guess technically yes in that an antique was damaged. A lot of people would call me cold for caring about the gun when the shooter had a hole drilled through his brain but objectively that's about all you can say was worse about this scenario than if the handloader had been using a rem 700.

Was the outcome, or story, relevant to the subject of shooting antiques? Not really. He wasn't shooting really, any more than if he'd been using the gun to drive fence posts and it went off.
 
walking arsenal said:
I shot a 1946 upright Kelvinator fridge once.
Click to expand...
We put lots of holes in a the body of a dead 1940's truck out on the desert. I don't know if that counts an antique.

I've shot more than one mid-1800's muzzleloader and a mid 1890's 1891 Argentine. Closest that I own is a 1909 from 1910-1912. I don't remember the exact year at the moment. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot lots of antiques, as long as it's sound and not some priceless piece. Actually, I'd probably shoot the priceless one's too.

Matt
 
An early 1800's muzzle loading flintlock pistol, which I didn't own, but was in the family, ditto with several old Winchesters, of the 1870's to 1910 vintage.

I own and shoot an 1884 Springfield 45-70 trapdoor, and an 1892 Krag carbine, and '96 Krag rifle, and a '98 Karg carbine that was my primary deer rifle for many years.

And many post-WWI guns more than seventy years old.
 
I have a Podewils-Lindner from about 1867 that requires paper cartridges that I shoot about 20 rounds a year through and a Dutch Beaumont from 1875 that I also shoot, and will shoot more once I get a set of dies made so I can reload the brass. I am waiting on an 1840 something Dutch muzzleloader that is slightly over 30 caliber and if it is in good condition I will shoot it also. That doesn't even count a number of pre-1930 cartridge guns I have that I regularly shoot which includes a Winchester target rifle. As long as a person is prudent in researching what the weapon was designed to fire in it's time and keep the loads at or sightly below those levels it is no more risky firing a piece of history than it is firing a modern weapon. It is also very mentally rewarding to shoot a piece of history, in my opinion.
 
I shoot a ~1800 brass flintlock all the time, an original colt 1849 pocket, a model 92 winchester from 1916, a 50-70 spencer carbine and a ballard 38XL on occasion
 
antique

Does taking an mod 1886 Elsie Hammerless [1895? mfg] count? I only load 75gr ffg w 1oz shot,works well.Danger? as always,there is the possibility of bursting a barrel;but I still bring it out for family functions.
 
I bought, and subsequently shot this sexy Smith & Wesson 455 MK II Hand Ejector that was used by the British in the First World War. It was sent back to the US and was rechambered to 45 Colt. This gun is right about 99 years old. Not exactly an antique by gun standards, but probably the oldest one in my stash.

IMAGE_10.jpg
 
A few over a hundred years but not early 1800's.
1873 Winchester 44-40
1873 trapdoor 45-70
Colt 44-40
Plus others.....
 
I friend and I were shooting my 1875 .45 Colt SAA last week . First time she ever shot it bullseyed first shot at 15 yds. Old guns are good to have, better to have and shoot
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Revision of Antique Firearms Status?
Replies
6
Views
746
bonza
B
M
  • Locked
Defence with antique firearms
2
Replies
35
Views
4K
Nickel Plated
N
J
  • Locked
Inherited an antique pistol?
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
akodo
A
benEzra
  • Locked
Heartbreaking sight at gun show this weekend...mistreated antiques...
Replies
5
Views
857
cnorman18
C
Freudianfloyd
  • Locked
Your Most Valuable Gun
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
137
Views
8K
BigBoreBubba
BigBoreBubba
Back
Top