Ever try using old style lard in your lube?

[Texas Moon]

Just curious if any of you ever tried lard in your lube mixes?

Its cheap and easy to get.

 

[Pulp]

Don't quote me on it, but I remember reading somewhere that lard has some acids in it that are not agreeable with blued finishes.

A absolutely know that margarine and blued finishes are not compatable. Oh well, at least it gave me an excuse to learn bluing.

 

[bubba15301]

dont use lard it is full of salt

 

[Busyhands94]

i don't know if we are talking about the same thing here, but my bullet lube recipe is to take some freshly cast bullets, stick them in a tin, add fine graphite powder, shake, remove the excess with a paper towel, put them back in the tin, add a drop of Hoppes number 9 lubricating oil, then dry them off with a paper towel so they aren't completely wet but still lubed. it works really well

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Yep, lard has got salt in it.
Tell ya what works well though
Get some lamb fat and make lamb tallow.
Then use it to make yer lube.
I make Gatofeo's lube for my cap guns
2 parts lamb tallow, two parts canning paraffin, one part beeswax
Great stuff.
Cut 1/4" cookies & put between powder & ball, or Soak it into wool wads & put between powder & ball.
Cleanest cap gun barrels I've ever had after shooting all day (7 stage match)
--Dawg

 

[Hellgate]

I've been using 50/50 beeswax & lard for a couple of years. I think if you use bacon grease (mostly lard) there is plenty of salt in it. I don't have a lard package handy but I don't remember seeing whether there's any salt in it. If there is some it should be listed on the label. There may be some fatty acids (which are oils) but I don't know about salt. The last couple deer seasons have been good (between my brother & I we have gotten 4 deer including one very fat buck and one nice very fat barren doe) so now I have a few pounds of deer tallow.
A question for the audience: is deer tallow a good substitute for mutton tallow in BP bullet lubes? Currently I am using straight deer tallow for the revolver wad lube but mixing it 50/50 with beeswax for my rifle and pistol lube. Seems OK so far. It is hard to beat the cost of a 1 pound brick of lard which is what Crisco was trying to replace for cooking. They made it resemble lard in the can.

 

[makos_goods]

i don't know if we are talking about the same thing here, but my bullet lube recipe is to take some freshly cast bullets, stick them in a tin, add fine graphite powder, shake, remove the excess with a paper towel, put them back in the tin, add a drop of Hoppes number 9 lubricating oil, then dry them off with a paper towel so they aren't completely wet but still lubed. it works really well

Busyhands,
I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

This is effective for a day of shooting 30 to 60 rounds before cleaning?

Regards,
Mako

 

[Curator]

Packaged lard in the grocery store also comes in unsalted form. Check the label. A 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube is an exellent black powder bullet/wad lube. Commercial unslated lard has a preservative in it (butylatedhydroxtuline) so that won't grow rancid right away like home-rendered lard. I still keep my made up lube in the 'fridge. Keeps for years but I try to use it up so it isn't a concern.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Lard naturally has an amount of salt in it, without being added. The pig has salt in it, through it's blood and in it's fat. Which rendered down is lard. Lard also contains certain fatty acids in greater quantitites than in vegetable lubes.

Lanolin, referred to around here as "sheep sweat", is a better lube. Lanolin is an oil/grease like substance exuded from the sheep's skin. Those who work with sheep, shearing etc, almost never have rough hands. During spring shearing, the lanolin gets on and into everything. After shearing a few sheep, my levis are soaked through with lanolin. Fortunately it washes off with water.

Even lanolin has a small amount of salt in it naturally.

Lard is cheap, but so are other similar lubes, like veggie shortening.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't know who told you this, but filtered lard is tested, and many brands have zero sodium, and lard does not contain potassium, which are the two possible sources for "salts" that you would find in fat rendered from a pig. Potassium chloride and sodium chloride.

non-potassium-foods

Goya Refined lard

Armour refined lard

Now they do add some citric acid as a preservative, which might cause corrosion over time. I have never had a problem using lard mixed with beeswax as a lube. Olive oil and beeswax also works. I use it with patched round ball in a rifle. I think the residue from BP and substitutes is far more corrosive than lube made with lard. Fatty acids from many plant sources may also be high.

Fatty Acids - scroll down to table of Fatty Acids in Dietary Fats

LD

 

[Busyhands94]

yes Mako, it seems to work very well! are you talking about the stuff you put over your cap n' ball chambers to prevent a chainfire?

 

[junkman_01]

I think the residue from BP and substitutes is far more corrosive than lube made with lard.

I don't know who told YOU that, but the residue from BP is not corrosive in itself. Corrosion occurs because the residue is hygroscopic (it attracts water vapor).

 

[makos_goods]

yes Mako, it seems to work very well! are you talking about the stuff you put over your cap n' ball chambers to prevent a chainfire?

Busyhands,
I prevent chainfires by using correctly fit dead soft lead balls or bullets (personally I believe almost all chainfires are initiated from the rear). I am talking about keeping the powder fouling soft and primarily preventing binding of the cylinder on the arbor from the fouling. I really don't care what the bore looks like as long as the fouling is soft.

Because I shoot from the holster and carry the pistols around charged but uncapped for the next stage I don't like using lubricant over the balls. It tends to get everywhere and I have noticed it often flashed off on the remaining chambers after a couple of shots. For lubrication I use tight fitting felt wads cut from 1/8" felt lubricated from our perennial "holy black" favorite lube made from Mutton Tallow, Bees Wax and Paraffin shown below. The lubricant is preserved from shot to shot and the wad helps clear the fouling from the bore and forcing cone each shot, but mainly I don't have grease running down my leg on those hot summer matches.



When I practice I tend to shoot 100 to 120 of my cast Ø.454 balls divided between a pair of my practice pistols. I may clean once during the session as the fouling builds up on the arbor with a rag and brush.

Lately I've gotten a bit lazier in my practice sessions about the time it takes me to load the cylinder so I have a pair of R&D cylinders on loan and I use EPP-UG bullets in .45 Schofield brass. That load of 21gr of FFFg is a bit wimpier than my ball loads of 27-30 grains but it works fine at CAS ranges. It isn't as fast as a pistol with a loading gate but it is a bit faster and my hands stay cleaner.

At club matches I shoot loose powder and balls over lubricated wads, normally 60 rounds (30 per pistol) or 40 per pistol for one club with a standing 8 stage routine. The reason I am asking is that I'm not sure if I could make it through a match or practice session without a good BP lube to keep the fouling soft.

I know there are some on this forum that contend they can even shoot dry for hours without cleaning, but that flies in the face of my experience, and I have tried about everything you can think of. Your lubricant sounds more like what someone would use with hard cast bullets at higher velocities to prevent leading. Leading isn't the issue, it's the hard crusty fouling that deposits at the arbor to cylinder interface. It almost looks like the hard carbon/lead fouling you get with higher velocity smokeless loads but it cleans with the universal solvent (water). With the traditional lubricants this stays soft and doesn't advance deeper into the arbor hole "eating up" your arbor lube.

I am always the student and will listen to any reasonable argument for an alternative technique. I value any experience even though I may not ultimately subscribe to it. It becomes another data point in our collective experience.

Thanks in advance for any additional information you can provide.

Regards,
Mako

 

[mykeal]

the residue from BP is not corrosive in itself. Corrosion occurs because the residue is hygroscopic

Huh?
If one of the physical properties of black powder 'residue' (that is, combustion by-products) is that it is hygroscopic (and it is), and that property makes it corrosive (it does) then it is corrosive. In itself. It's a property of the material.

 

[Oyeboten]

Well, toop, there is Lard and there is Lard.

Lard now a days, will generally be Hydrogenated, whereas home made Lard years ago, was not.

I would not use it myself, in any form, since I do not wish to have stinking decomposing randicifying Lubes.


Tallows, Lards, Butter, probably all could be used and would work alright by themselves in in combination with other things, but, they will decompose, even if hydrogenated.


Bee's Wax in combination with Olive Oil - made in sensible proportions - remains stable and does not oxidise or decompose or stink or wick into things.


Sodium Chlroride Salts which are present in many ( but not all ) Commercial Lards, Butters, or possibly Tallows, of course would be a bad thing to have present.


Pure Bee's Wax alone is plenty excellent, for that matter. And will never wick, decompose or cause any troubles whatever over any time line.

 

[junkman_01]

Mykeal,

No sir it does not make it corrosive. A corrosive agent will act on the steel without the presence of anything else. It is the water vapor that is doing the damage.

 

[makos_goods]

Mykeal,

No sir it does not make it corrosive. A corrosive agent will act on the steel without the presence of anything else. It is the water vapor that is doing the damage.

Mykeal,
I have to agree with Junkman. A compound or chemical which is the agent of the oxidizing process is a "primary" mechanism; at best a hygroscopic compound is a secondary mechanism.

For instance if you fired your BP firearm in the Atacama Desert which has a relative humidity as low as 5% and then laid it down in a cave where it would be protected from UV degradation you could come back in months or even years and find no evidence of corrosion.

In fact any water vapor created by the firing of the black powder would be dissipated almost immediately and at a temperature it would not deposit on the metal portions of the firearm.

It just means it attracts and holds moisture, but it has to be in a moisture rich environment. Many things are hygroscopic you would not consider corrosive or even aiding in the oxidation of iron. For instance diesel fuel is hygroscopic yet it is used as a common cleaner in many places for steel parts. A lot of polymers are hygroscopic including common engineering plastics such as nylon. Yet no one would warn you to keep either from your firearms.

Here is a tidbit of information for you. If you have firearms that are ever involved in a fire or have been deluged by water and you just need to protect them until you can clean them later get a drum and put the firearms in it (removing stocks if you have the time) and then submerge them totally with diesel. It will draw the water off and then the other saturated hydrocarbons in it will protect them from rusting. Leave them submerged until ready to clean them up.

~Mako

 

[GCBurner]

Plain Crisco vegetable shortening actually works fine all by itself.

 

[Cosmoline]

Bee's Wax in combination with Olive Oil - made in sensible proportions - remains stable and does not oxidise or decompose or stink or wick into things.

I tell you what, I've been loving that combination since I started using it. By adjusting the amounts of each you can make everything from heavy patch lube to a protective wax for wooden kitchen utensils and cutting boards. It's salt free, 100% food grade and very easy to make.

 

[makos_goods]

Plain Crisco vegetable shortening actually works fine all by itself.

GC,
How I wish that were true. If it were then we would all be happy to have such an inexpensive and readily available lubricant.

The problem is that it isn't stiff enough and has melting point that is too low. It completely melts at 117°F. Lard is even worse it melts way below even our body temperature at about 88°F. You can tell the frontiersmen that use Crisco in summer matches by the wet greasy stains on their trousers below their holsters.

For the casual plinker it works okay. Some people use it as one of the components of a stiffer and higher melting point lube mixture. Pistols remain warm in summer heat and your Crisco is always soft or even flowing. Plus it flashes off in the unfired chambers as you fire your pistol.

Regards,
Mako

 

[Oyeboten]

Some climes can recommend varying melting points of Lube.

Here in Las Vegas Nevada, and it's immediate surrounds even more so, Winter Lows can be into the low 20s or even high teens. Summer highs, pushing 130.


If one Load Metallic Cartridge Black Powder with a Lube or Lube Wafer in it...or, load a Cap & Ball revolver which may sit around a while, or be in the Car for a year or more...it can kinda sorta maybe matter a little, how the Lube or Lube Wafer will behave at these temps.

Bee's Wax with a little Carnuba even, for Summer...seems quite agreeable, as for a box of Lube Wafers not sticking together too bad at Summer's Peak when out of Doors.

 

[mykeal]

From The Free Online Dictionary:

cor·ro·sive (k-rsv, -zv) adj.
1. Having the capability or tendency to cause corrosion
2. Gradually destructive; steadily harmful
3. Spitefully sarcastic

IF the bp combustion by-products did not contain salts, and were thus not hygroscopic, then they would not attract water and thus no corrosion would take place. Correct?

But, they are hygroscopic. We do agree on that. And they thus do attract and hold water, which in turn reacts with the free ions in the steel to form iron oxide.

It is my opinion the capability, or tendency, of bp combustion by-products to attract and hold water, which in turn participates with the free ions in the steel alloy to cause oxidation (whether a primary or secondary mechanism is irrelevant, it still occurs) meets the first definition above.

 

[junkman_01]

You are entitled to have your own opinion, even if it is wrong. I'll take definition#3.

 

[makos_goods]

From The Free Online Dictionary:

IF the bp combustion by-products did not contain salts, and were thus not hygroscopic, then they would not attract water and thus no corrosion would take place. Correct?

But, they are hygroscopic. We do agree on that. And they thus do attract and hold water, which in turn reacts with the free ions in the steel to form iron oxide.

It is my opinion the capability, or tendency, of bp combustion by-products to attract and hold water, which in turn participates with the free ions in the steel alloy to cause oxidation (whether a primary or secondary mechanism is irrelevant, it still occurs) meets the first definition above.

Mykeal,
I wouldn't try to defend that position in front of a chemist or materials scientist. Have you ever had to defend a technical position in front of a technical review? They won't let you make those kind of jumps.

Trying to assign a second mechanism is akin to the argument that "guns are the cause of murder." Think about it a while...

~Mako

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Calm down Mr. MyKeal! I'm on your side here and I'll tell you why...This is like someone asking "Can God do anything He want's to"?.."Yes".. "Anything at all? I mean, He IS God".. "I told you yes. God can do do anything. There is nothing He cannot do"..."Well then, can He make a rock so big that He can't pick it up"?..I have used my blackpowder firearms in South America, Mexico, Louisiana, Alabama, Wyoming, Montana, Canada, Alaska, and now I'm back 'home' in my beloved adopted "Cowboy State" which all of you aliens in the United States refer to as Wyoming. Everywhere I have been with my guns I have breathed that mixture known as air. All the air I have ever breathed since I was borned has a certain amount of water vapor in it, be it down in the flats or up high and I am up pretty high right now. If there was no water vapor in this mixture known as 'air' that I breathe then I wouldn't live very long. Bottom line here; for whatever reason, if one fire's their blackpowder firearm and does not clean it then it will surely rust. How much or how fast it will rust depend's on how many times it is fired and what part of the country this take's place. But without proper cleaning and proper maintenance and love and care, it will surely rust....