Ever try using old style lard in your lube?

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I have used unsalted lard as a patch lube on my pillow-ticking for about 30 years. Never had any problems with any of my long guns.
 
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL said:
Calm down Mr. MyKeal! I'm on your side here and I'll tell you why...This is like someone asking "Can God do anything He want's to"?.."Yes".. "Anything at all? I mean, He IS God".. "I told you yes. God can do do anything. There is nothing He cannot do"..."Well then, can He make a rock so big that He can't pick it up"?..I have used my blackpowder firearms in South America, Mexico, Louisiana, Alabama, Wyoming, Montana, Canada, Alaska, and now I'm back 'home' in my beloved adopted "Cowboy State" which all of you aliens in the United States refer to as Wyoming. Everywhere I have been with my guns I have breathed that mixture known as air. All the air I have ever breathed since I was borned has a certain amount of water vapor in it, be it down in the flats or up high and I am up pretty high right now. If there was no water vapor in this mixture known as 'air' that I breathe then I wouldn't live very long. Bottom line here; for whatever reason, if one fire's their blackpowder firearm and does not clean it then it will surely rust. How much or how fast it will rust depend's on how many times it is fired and what part of the country this take's place. But without proper cleaning and proper maintenance and love and care, it will surely rust....
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Mr. Gentleman sir,
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. There is a certain threshold of moisture that must exist for in order for electrochemical reactions to occur. Corrosion is by definition just that. The reason that metals corrode and ALL metals including noble metals corrode in the right environments, is literally a thermodynamic phenomenon.

Almost all metals are not thermodynamically stable in the metallic form, they want to corrode and revert to the more stable forms which are the oxides of those metals. Metal ores are those basic oxides that all refined materials are trying to degenerate to. The process by which they revert to oxide forms is a simple electrochemical reaction.

For an electrochemical reaction to take place four components must be present in the right ratios ant they have to be active. This includes the cathode, the anode and electrolyte and a path. The subject of this discussion is the electrolyte.

If what you stipulate were true that anywhere on this planet you could breathe you would have active corrosion then we wouldn't have the mummies of the Chilean desert. The only thing that is more certain than decomposition of metals from higher forms to a lower energy state is the corruption and decomposition of necrotic tissues, and those require moisture as well.

As I said the Atacama plain has year round humidity between 5 and 8%. In all of human history there has never been recorded precipitation in the central parts of the plain. Do you realize that RH levels lower than 20% are from a technical standpoint actually considered dry? That means in corrosion science there are thresholds for sustainable reactions. My colleague Ceki would bore you to tears describing the states and sub-states between 20 and 5% . Once you reach 10% they are considered Ultra-Dry. At 5% RH you are holding at a humidity lower than anything other than a dry box environment.

The very environment in an area below 20% RH acts as a sponge and will grab any moisture not bound or protected. The salts such as potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide and calcium chloride are in abundance and the compounds of the BP residue will go wanting.

So I ask you now, do you still want to say there would be sufficient free electrolyte available for a hygroscopic material like BP residue to attract and retain enough of it from such an environment as the high Chilean desert to sustain an electrochemical reaction?

So I'll still back what Junkman originally said. The residue is merely a hygroscopic material, it is definitely not the anode, it is also not the cathode or the electrolyte. Some might try to argue that it is a contributor to the conductiive path because of some graphitic form of carbon that are present in all charcoals. But give us all a break...With the hunk of iron there that tortuous path is definitely not the path of least resistance.

The residue in the form known to all of us by any scientific definition (not a colloquial dictionary of layman's terms) is not corrosive. It merely attracts an electrolyte that will be absorbed if it is present in a high enough concentration. So I will ask once again, are you stipulating that even 10% without any other source of moisture is a high enough RH to allow the reaction we call "rusting?"


Regards,
Mako
 
Wow! Did I open a box of worms. Hahahaha.

The reason I was asking about using unsalted lard is because the only place I know to get mutton tallow is Dixie Gun Works. Its kind of pricey.
Lard I can get down the street at Food King.
I'm a HUGE fan of Gatofeo's lube recipe or beeswax, mutton tallow, and paraffin.
That stuff rocks in my C&B revo's.
I make the felt wads with a punch and soak them in the molten lube then set the wads out to cool. Then bag them up. Work fantastic.
I make the beewax - olive oil lube for my muzzleloader patches and for over ball use in misc C&B's I don't have a wad punch for.
Original question was just an idea to save a little money and time.
 
Texas Moon said:
Wow! Did I open a box of worms. Hahahaha.

The reason I was asking about using unsalted lard is because the only place I know to get mutton tallow is Dixie Gun Works. Its kind of pricey.
Lard I can get down the street at Food King.
I'm a HUGE fan of Gatofeo's lube recipe or beeswax, mutton tallow, and paraffin.
That stuff rocks in my C&B revo's.
I make the felt wads with a punch and soak them in the molten lube then set the wads out to cool. Then bag them up. Work fantastic.
I make the beewax - olive oil lube for my muzzleloader patches and for over ball use in misc C&B's I don't have a wad punch for.
Original question was just an idea to save a little money and time.
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Texas Moon,
It is a bigger box than you have imagined… You see you can’t get Mutton Tallow from Dixie anymore. Ever since the Mad Cow scare and the increased control by the government on the use of animal byproducts in feeds, Mutton Tallow availability has pretty much dried up.

Some have moved to vegetable oils and others have been searching for an animal fat alternative. The problem is that Mutton Tallow is relatively stable and does not go rancid like porcine or bovine tallows. Deer tallow and other wildlife tallows show promise but they fat content is low per animal. Most of the harvestable fat comes from around the kidneys.

Other people have been using other fats such as Olive oil successfully for some time and others are looking at the relatively new Soy Greases that have been introduced. It is now being used in growing amounts by railroads as curve grease and the trucking industry is taking an interest in it. It is considered a “green” lubricant which is now a concern for track application.

The properties that make an ideal BP lubricant have never been published to my knowledge. There appears to be a correlation between the type of fatty acids that are in the oils or saturated fats and the ability to keep the residues soft in the face of the high temperatures from firing and the compounds left as the byproduct of the combustion of BP.

Regards,
Mako
 
I still keep my made up lube in the 'fridge. Keeps for years but I try to use it up so it isn't a concern.
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Is it necessary to keep lube in the fridge? I use Gatofeo's lube recipe and I was wondering if that will spoil if it's not in a refridgerator? Thanks in advance for the input.
 
So, 'Dixie' pulled their Mutton Tallow...

Lol...


Mutton is so Tallowy, heck, just get a Leg o' Mutton, cook it, and you will have a years supply of Tallow, at least.

Everyone ought to cook Mutton for supper at least once, to get some idea what it is like.

You can alwys scrub the Walls and ceiling, at liesure...Lol.
 
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Oyeboten said:
So, 'Dixie' pulled their Mutton Tallow...

Lol...
Click to expand...

That is not accurate, Dixie did not "PULL" the Mutton Tallow. They cannot get a supply of it. According to them they have been looking and can't find a new source.

I just wanted to make sure it doesn't come across as if they were participating in the hand wringing and hysteria that has brought us to this point.

Regards,
Mako
 
What about Vaseline? It's not anodic, cathodic or hygroscopic - a dab across the balls should prevent chain-firing? This, of course, assumes that chain-firing occurs at the ball-end of the cylinder rather than the nipple-end.
 
Vaseline is much too runny in hot weather and as the gun heats up, it runs off. Besides it is petroleum based.
 
Have YOU ever tried Vaseline? It does the job, but is very runny and gets all over everything when you fire.
 
arcticap said:
That doesn't matter since it's harmless when used with black powder, just like the mineral oil that's contained in Bore Butter or Ballistol which is also petroleum based.

This shooter is using petroleum jelly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkkThYWJpRE&playnext=1&list=PL42ABC841EB8A0C8F
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Arcitcap,
You can use Vaseline if you are shooting like he is. There are a lot of things you can do if you're just at a range casually shooting off of a bench.

Junkman is right petroleum jelly gets everywhere.

I do know of some recipes that use petroleum jelly as the lubricant with stiffeners such as beeswax and paraffin. You've probably seen them as well. Petroleum jelly does have a higher melting point than a lot of other semi-solid lubricants which is getting closer, but it doesn't have are the fatty acids which have been suggested by some shooters currently doing some R&D to be the reason some lubricants keep fouling softer than others.

~Mako
 
junkman_01 seems to think that it's harmful to use certain products just because they are petroleum based when that's simply not the case. Thus the only reason for my previous post about Vaseline being as harmless as mineral oil, Bore Butter and Ballistol.
 
There's some reference info. in this post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4873437&postcount=37

I don't know what the chemistry differences are between what's safe and what's not.
Maybe it has to do with the number of carbon atoms.
No one wants to see a bad interaction occur when another person uses black powder. And since Pyrodex and black powder share the same ingredients with the addition of perchlorate, Pyrodex users could be affected by the same bad interactions too.
There's also some petroleum based waxes and patch lubes which have been reported to be okay to use.
IIRC petroleum was once organic matter. Mineral oil has medicinal uses and in preparing food.
 
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Hi Mako,


You'd clearified -

That is not accurate, Dixie did not "PULL" the Mutton Tallow. They cannot get a supply of it. According to them they have been looking and can't find a new source.

I just wanted to make sure it doesn't come across as if they were participating in the hand wringing and hysteria that has brought us to this point.

Regards,
Mako
Click to expand...


Ahhhh, okay...I had read in haste and not appreciated the distinction.


If the usual Commercial sources, from which Dixie used to obtain their Mutton Tallow, have with-held the product...one could still very easily make one's own by simply buying Mutton, and, Roasting it, saving and seiving the run off.


My own decision, was to use only non-petroleum kinds of Waxes or Oils for my BP Boolit/Bullet Lube.

Turns out also, far as I can tell, that this works splendidly for Smokeless Metallic Cartridge also.

I use Bee's Wax with a little Olive Oil, ( adding a little Carnuba in Summer maybe ) and, while this is molten, I make strips of regular Paper Towel dipped in to it, which once cool, I cut out small 'discs' with a Gasket Punch, and, these go between Powder and Ball.


Same formula, can be used in one's Bullet Sizing-Lubing Machine for filing the Bullet Grooves with the Lubricant.

Entirely clean, elegent, no mess before during or after use or firing, no leading, no fouling, no dirty Hands form shooting, easy clean up of the Arm...perfect and excellent in every way possible.

Since this has worked so beautifully from the start I have felt no urge to be experimenting further for improvements or for using other based materials.

No doubt a great many different materials could be used, and or will appear to offer some desired properties in merely superficial assay or for merely one order of application, such as loading and shooting with no delay, and having low expectations from prior habituations anyway.


I remember how horrible the entire use of 'Crisco' was, when in the early 1960s my Dad sent off for a reproduction Colt Navy, and, to find a solution for the Chain Fires we were getting, we read to use Crisco on the Chamber ends.

Messy, horrible, yucky.

Yet, many people still do this, and, it ends up defining for them the expectations or understandiungs they will retain.

I have had no Chain Fires using the Lube Wafers and using right fitting Caps.

I have had no Chain Fires at all period in my return to Cap & Ball Revolver a couple years ago...where, from the onset, having surveyed the methods for Lube and for preventing Chain Fires, and, having thought about it critically, I elected the home made, thin Lube Wafer Lube method, and, to use right fitting Caps.


There is no Scientific basis for attributions of an Organic provenance for Petroleum.

No such assertions were ever made on any Scientific or verifiable premis, nor has any basis for making them ever found.

It was a 'Sonoco' advertising campaign which cinched this mis-apprehension into the psyches of the american public, with the use of the Brontosaurus 'mascot'...starting, I think, in the late 1920s.

The Geological origins of Petroleum remain mysterious and undemonstrated.
 
First, to the lard. After I had finished shooting and had cleaned the piece I have occasionally used store bought unsalted lard and greased it down a little. I have also used lard to rub my boots down and then set them by the fire for awhile or all night. Not against the fire, just close enough so they would stay warm. The lard never damaged my firearm and it protected it from rust. Never hurt my boots either; kept them soft and pliable. Now I'm old and retired and sit around a lot and drink gallons of coffee and smoke many yards of tobacco every day. Don't bother shooting much anymore. My firearms are tools, not something to sit around and play with. Now I have more cleaning gear than I will use in my lifetime but the lard worked good and so will chicken fat.....Now....Everything work's as a whole. Oh yes, I suppose I could stick my firearms or my knives in a hot oven and leave them there and they would not rust because there is no water vapor in there. The heat caused it to dissipate and go away. There are places on this earth that are very dry compared to other parts of this earth. For instance; my knives and firearms (given the chance, which they didn't get) would rust and corrode much more quickly in Louisiana and Alabama (Even without firing the damn thing) than they will up here simply because the air is a lot thinner and much more dry up here than it is down there..Whether or not one can simply pour some powder down a bare barrel or shoot it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Since there is moisture in the air that firearm will rust without proper cleaning if it is fired. Whether it is because the powder creates salts or some other chemical or whether it is because of the existing moisture in the air is irrvelevant and in-material since the only thing that should concern anyone is that the firearm must be cleaned and have a protective coating placed over the metal parts to protect them from the air which has moisture in it....A footnote here that I have alway's found interesting..Scientista know what water is composed of. Hell, they can combine the ingredients in the laboratory. They can do everything with it but make it wet. They said that if they could figure out what make's water wet that they could solve the secret of all life in the universe....
 
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I have used rendered pig fat and beeswax in a 3/1 combination for thirty years of shooting blackpowder.
I use card wads overpowder when loading cartridges, smoothbores, and bulleted muzzleloading rifles.
Never had a problem with the stuff.
 
Oyeboten said:
There is no Scientific basis for attributions of an Organic provenance for Petroleum.

No such assertions were ever made on any Scientific or verifiable premis, nor has any basis for making them ever found.

It was a 'Sonoco' advertising campaign which cinched this mis-apprehension into the psyches of the american public, with the use of the Brontosaurus 'mascot'...starting, I think, in the late 1920s.

The Geological origins of Petroleum remain mysterious and undemonstrated.
Click to expand...

It was easy to find using Wikipedia. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum

According to generally accepted theory, petroleum is derived from ancient biomass.[17] It is a fossil fuel derived from ancient fossilized organic materials. The theory was initially based on the isolation of molecules from petroleum that closely resemble known biomolecules.

More specifically, crude oil and natural gas are products of heating of ancient organic materials (i.e. kerogen) over geological time. Formation of petroleum occurs from hydrocarbon pyrolysis, in a variety of mostly endothermic reactions at high temperature and/or pressure.[18] Today's oil formed from the preserved remains of prehistoric zooplankton and algae, which had settled to a sea or lake bottom in large quantities under anoxic conditions (the remains of prehistoric terrestrial plants, on the other hand, tended to form coal). Over geological time the organic matter mixed with mud, and was buried under heavy layers of sediment resulting in high levels of heat and pressure (diagenesis). This process caused the organic matter to change, first into a waxy material known as kerogen, which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons via a process known as catagenesis.

There were certain warm nutrient-rich environments such as the Gulf of Mexico and the ancient Tethys Sea where the large amounts of organic material falling to the ocean floor exceeded the rate at which it could decompose. This resulted in large masses of organic material being buried under subsequent deposits such as shale formed from mud. This massive organic deposit later became heated and transformed under pressure into oil.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
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If you live near a reasonably sized city, find a butcher who handles lamb.
He will have plenty of lamb fat to sell.
I'm fortunate to live in a city with a large Indian population (from India)
A lot of lamb is available.
--Dawg
 
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