Expected Frequency of Failure in function
- Thread starter BaltimoreBoy
- Start date
- Status
Outside of a "tortue test", where you are stressing the design past the intended use, the mean rounds between failure of any good quality, modern, semi-auto pistol, using good quality ammunitin, should be in the thousands of rounds. This also assumes you are using good quality factory magazines (or equivilant - like Mec Gar), in good repair.
This also assumes normal lubrication, cleaning, and periodic maintainence. Your failure rate will go up if the gun starts out dry, or if the oil the has run out of your gun, for instance, or if you insist on running hundreds or even thousands of rounds through the gun between cleanings. (Even in that case, if you periodically squirt lube into a dirty gun, it will help keep it running).
To give an example, I used my CZ-75 in Mas Ayoob's LFI 1 class. I started with a clean, lubed pistol and ran about 150 - 200 rounds through it each day. I'd then clean it in the evening before the next days class. The night before the last class day I did not clean it or relube it as I wanted to see how it would perform. By the end of that day it went about 300 - 350 rounds since it had been cleaned or lubed. I had ZERO malfunctions in the class.
I used the same pistol later in LFI 2 and I think I cleaned it once, half way through the class. Again, zero malfunctions.
With that particular pistol, I can count the malfunctions I've had on one hand, after thousands and thousands of rounds. The most recent was a failure to go into battery near the end of a training class after the gun got quite dirty. A quick tap on the slide got me back into action and adding some lube kept me going for the rest of the class until I cleaned the pistol. That malfunction was noteworthy because I literally could not remember the last time I'd had a malfunction with that pistol.
Now, anything mechanical can and will eventually fail. With a good semi-auto pistol though, a mechanical failure that is not related to bad ammo or lack of lube will probably occur when some small piece goes out of spec from excessive wear or just outright breaks. The extractor on a 1911, for instance, is a known part that can break and cause problems, especially if it is made of sub-standard materials or with sub-standard methods.
This also assumes normal lubrication, cleaning, and periodic maintainence. Your failure rate will go up if the gun starts out dry, or if the oil the has run out of your gun, for instance, or if you insist on running hundreds or even thousands of rounds through the gun between cleanings. (Even in that case, if you periodically squirt lube into a dirty gun, it will help keep it running).
To give an example, I used my CZ-75 in Mas Ayoob's LFI 1 class. I started with a clean, lubed pistol and ran about 150 - 200 rounds through it each day. I'd then clean it in the evening before the next days class. The night before the last class day I did not clean it or relube it as I wanted to see how it would perform. By the end of that day it went about 300 - 350 rounds since it had been cleaned or lubed. I had ZERO malfunctions in the class.
I used the same pistol later in LFI 2 and I think I cleaned it once, half way through the class. Again, zero malfunctions.
With that particular pistol, I can count the malfunctions I've had on one hand, after thousands and thousands of rounds. The most recent was a failure to go into battery near the end of a training class after the gun got quite dirty. A quick tap on the slide got me back into action and adding some lube kept me going for the rest of the class until I cleaned the pistol. That malfunction was noteworthy because I literally could not remember the last time I'd had a malfunction with that pistol.
Now, anything mechanical can and will eventually fail. With a good semi-auto pistol though, a mechanical failure that is not related to bad ammo or lack of lube will probably occur when some small piece goes out of spec from excessive wear or just outright breaks. The extractor on a 1911, for instance, is a known part that can break and cause problems, especially if it is made of sub-standard materials or with sub-standard methods.
loop
Member
Torture tests are bunk.
Going through 10,000 rounds without a failure are bunk.
In a real self defense scenario you are very unlikely to need a second mag. You are extremely unlikely to require a third mag.
If you require a third mag you better hope backup is very close by.
Can your clean gun go through three mags without a failure? If it can, is it fired at paper with no clock rushing you.
I've shot with the same IDPA club for six years. I had one failure to return to battery that took a tap to resolve. It was the talk of the club for weeks that I had a failure. In six years of shooting with them twice a month they had never seen one of my guns falter.
Talk about failures under stress. That is different. I see them at every IDPA match. They are accompanied by "It's never done that before."
Fire a 1,000 rounds out of handgun without cleaning? What are you - an idiot?
Test a carry gun. Properly cleaned and lubricated and see if it will fire 30 rounds in 20 seconds from a holstered starting position. Then we have something to talk about.
Torture test? Boohoo! Go back to school.
Going through 10,000 rounds without a failure are bunk.
In a real self defense scenario you are very unlikely to need a second mag. You are extremely unlikely to require a third mag.
If you require a third mag you better hope backup is very close by.
Can your clean gun go through three mags without a failure? If it can, is it fired at paper with no clock rushing you.
I've shot with the same IDPA club for six years. I had one failure to return to battery that took a tap to resolve. It was the talk of the club for weeks that I had a failure. In six years of shooting with them twice a month they had never seen one of my guns falter.
Talk about failures under stress. That is different. I see them at every IDPA match. They are accompanied by "It's never done that before."
Fire a 1,000 rounds out of handgun without cleaning? What are you - an idiot?
Test a carry gun. Properly cleaned and lubricated and see if it will fire 30 rounds in 20 seconds from a holstered starting position. Then we have something to talk about.
Torture test? Boohoo! Go back to school.
sohcgt2
Member
Regular maintainance and inspections can eliminate these types of failure. I agree that superficial cleaning and lubrication will keep a gun running temporarily but is no substitute for periodic maintainance. I do, however, belive that rapid fire of 250 rounds is an excellent reliability test. It heats the gun enough to know if it will function hot but is not so severe as to cause damage.
atblis
Member
Ehh. You can't shoot a semiauto pistol fast enough to damage it.
flyboy1788
Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 317
Buy good ammo, use good mags, and dont be afraid to replace springs. 99% of problems are solved if these things are taken care of.
i had mine freeze twice on me because I was trying to fire with my middle finger instead of my index. I was doing this as a part of a self defense firing position. I had the index on the slide stop pin on the right side of the gun pushing it to the left. that made it freeze the slide when i shot at the range. i would call that user error, not the gun, because the gun thinks i am trying to take the slide off(just like a 1911 slide stop pin)
besides my own failure to use the gun properly, my p345 is 100% reliable with all ammo and 4 different mags. 1 mag is from a p-90 that is around 15 years old?
I expect 1/10000 if i never clean the gun. but i do after every range visit, and sometimes even just because if i haven't gone to the range in a bit, and i carry every day so i figure a lube job won't hurt.
Because i clean the gun, my ftf expectancy is 0/infinity
besides my own failure to use the gun properly, my p345 is 100% reliable with all ammo and 4 different mags. 1 mag is from a p-90 that is around 15 years old?
I expect 1/10000 if i never clean the gun. but i do after every range visit, and sometimes even just because if i haven't gone to the range in a bit, and i carry every day so i figure a lube job won't hurt.
Because i clean the gun, my ftf expectancy is 0/infinity
well i know one thing
my CZ 75B, has gone through more extensive and longer torture and what not tests than almost any other modern handgun out there.
more than the beretta 92
it only comes second to the 1911 GI that has been tested for a hundred years about.
but the failure rate was Wayyyy down there.
it beat the beretta and the 1911 and a glock by a long shot.
the thing just wont die!
haha
my CZ 75B, has gone through more extensive and longer torture and what not tests than almost any other modern handgun out there.
more than the beretta 92
it only comes second to the 1911 GI that has been tested for a hundred years about.
but the failure rate was Wayyyy down there.
it beat the beretta and the 1911 and a glock by a long shot.
the thing just wont die!
haha
flyboy1788
Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 317
^^^^^
In the two ISHOT1000 matches held so far, barring a clear reason for problems (out-of-spec reloads/poor quality ammunition/overlubrication/faulty magazine) it seems that most decent autopistols will malfunction 5 times or less in 1000 rounds.
It's important to understand that some of those malfunctions may be user induced, some may be ammunition related and some may be due to issues with the gun. With a malfunction rate that low it's not really possible (except in unusual circumstances) to point at a definitive cause.
Based on those results, as a very rough rule of thumb, if your autopistol is malfunctioning more than 5 times in 1000 rounds then you need to look for a reason because something's definitely wrong with either the gun, your technique(s), and/or the ammunition.
First of all, a decent semi-auto will not malfunction very much (see above) so if you want to find patterns of malfunctions you have to shoot it a lot.
Second, YOU are part of the reliability equation. Sure, the gun can handle 1000 rounds, but can you? Is your gun still reliable if your grip is getting a bit less firm from being tired after shooting all day?
Virtually any semi-auto will malfunction under the proper (improper?) circumstances. Learning those circumstances will make you, your ammo & your gun a more reliable combination. For example, I found that the Ruger P95 I used in the test was more reliable when using the slingshot method (vs. using the slide release) when chambering a round from the magazine. The issue didn't show up until round 970 of the test--then it happened twice. After the test I shot another 100 rounds or so using the slingshot method to reload and never had another malfunction. On the one hand, a person could blithely say: "Well, don't shoot 900 rounds through your gun without cleaning it and it will never be an issue." Or, one could think a little more and say: "If this gun ever gets dirty (perhaps from being dropped in a struggle) it may jam if I reload using the slide release but probably won't if I slingshot the slide."
In addition, it was possible to look at the data gathered across all the guns tested and notice that in general, all of the guns seemed to malfunction less often during reloading if the slingshot method was used.
It's important to understand that some of those malfunctions may be user induced, some may be ammunition related and some may be due to issues with the gun. With a malfunction rate that low it's not really possible (except in unusual circumstances) to point at a definitive cause.
Based on those results, as a very rough rule of thumb, if your autopistol is malfunctioning more than 5 times in 1000 rounds then you need to look for a reason because something's definitely wrong with either the gun, your technique(s), and/or the ammunition.
That's not the point.
First of all, a decent semi-auto will not malfunction very much (see above) so if you want to find patterns of malfunctions you have to shoot it a lot.
Second, YOU are part of the reliability equation. Sure, the gun can handle 1000 rounds, but can you? Is your gun still reliable if your grip is getting a bit less firm from being tired after shooting all day?
Virtually any semi-auto will malfunction under the proper (improper?) circumstances. Learning those circumstances will make you, your ammo & your gun a more reliable combination. For example, I found that the Ruger P95 I used in the test was more reliable when using the slingshot method (vs. using the slide release) when chambering a round from the magazine. The issue didn't show up until round 970 of the test--then it happened twice. After the test I shot another 100 rounds or so using the slingshot method to reload and never had another malfunction. On the one hand, a person could blithely say: "Well, don't shoot 900 rounds through your gun without cleaning it and it will never be an issue." Or, one could think a little more and say: "If this gun ever gets dirty (perhaps from being dropped in a struggle) it may jam if I reload using the slide release but probably won't if I slingshot the slide."
In addition, it was possible to look at the data gathered across all the guns tested and notice that in general, all of the guns seemed to malfunction less often during reloading if the slingshot method was used.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
