Experts - Colt or ASM with Colt Address?

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The font on the barrel looks like the replica arms font more than the colt font, and it appears to maybe be .36? I'm skeptical...no clear pic of all the serials is also concerning.
 
Serial number falls in the 1858 time frame when the US bought third model Dragoons in pairs with shoulder stocks. Loading lever latch appears to be Post and ball type, rear sight appears to be original style - nowhere near like what the ASM repros had. Wedge screw was more than likely broken, Not being a Dragoon expert and failing a hands on inspection I'd say it's possibly an original. Would I buy it without an experts opinion - Nope!
 
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Being no expert either, what I see is - cyl. has U.S. Dragoons instead of MODEL U.S.M.R., large (by that time) loading port chamfer is missing, trapezoidal locking notches rather than rectangular ( don't think I've ever seen originals with traps), heavy machine marks on f.c.bung rather than a smooth bung. The rear sight looks good but the shortest is missing relief cut and the alignment mark on the barrel is missing.

Wouldn't touch it!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
The wedge screw is of particular interest to me.

I just bought an ASM Colt Addressed Third Model Dragoon from Cowans/Little Johns and it has an identical screw.

When I first got it, I knocked the wedge with a rubber mallet and it went flying.

After crawling around looking under the workbench for the very aerodynamic wedge, I looked at the retaining screw and saw that one side of the head was flattened.

My first thought was that I didn't know my own strength and had hit the wedge hard enough to shear off the side of the screw head.

On closer examination, I saw that the flat side of the screw was BLUED!

Obviously it was made that way and it was aligned with the top of the wedge when I hit it allowing the wedge to exit the barrel completely.

I have never (until this auction) seen another wedge retaining screw made so that the wedge could be completely removed just by aligning the flat side with top of the wedge.

All of my other reproductions have screws with fully round heads which require one to completely remove (drop and loose) the screw to remove the wedge.

Has anyone seen similar screws on reproduction or original Colts?
 
Easy way to check, pull one of the screws in the frame and check to see if it's metric or standard threads, metric makes it a repro.
 
I am not an expert by any means but all of the Colts I have seen have the caliber stamped in the brass just above and behind the trigger guard.

That said, my original 1851 made in 1862 has a blade front sight rather than the barleycorn.
 
Ephraim Kibbey said:
All of my other reproductions have screws with fully round heads which require one to completely remove (drop and loose) the screw to remove the wedge.

Has anyone seen similar screws on reproduction or original Colts?
Click to expand...

Uberti Man With No Name Conversions have the cut off screw. Not 100% sure but I think the open tops do too. The one on here looks like it was broken. U.S. Dragoons was used on the cylinders as was Model U.S.M.R.

There are some things about this that suggest it is real; but, there are a number of things that lead one to believe it is an ASM fake. Again, I wouldn't buy it without authentication by a reputable expert.
 
I am no Dragoon expert by any means but a couple of things stand out to me.

The shoulder stock hammer screw "studs" show no wear as do the other screw heads.

The rear sight on the barrel appears to be an add-on, but I don't have a clue as to the time frame it was added. Flayderman's shows no such thing insofar as original Dragoons.

If anyone has any other info, I would absolutely be glad to hear/see it.
 
Note the "COLT PATENT" rather than "COLTS PATENT" on the left side of the frame.

Is it back too far and down too low?

Is the word "COLT" stamped in a arc?
 
Fingers - My only Uberti conversions are two Cimarron 5.5" NMA's so they do not help much.

I have three Uberti open-tops: a Replica Arms, Marietta 1861 with full fluted cylinder, a Colt addressed Wells Fargo and a Cimarron "COTL NEY - WORK" addressed Walker.

None of these has the very convenient flat sided wedge screw.

I wonder how much this unusual screw added to the cost of making these third model dragoons.

Obviously too much as they are not on any other original or reproduction that I have ever encountered.
 
You called it Fingers!

Here is the illusive screw on an Uberti 1871 conversion:
 

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Fingers,
In the last photos that EK put up, the smallest sight blade has the relief cut that I was talking about. The Dragoon in question doesn't have that relief. The late 3rd pics I was looking at also had the relief which is why I included that as an " observation ".

EK, I cut the wedge screw heads like that on my conversions. It is a nice convenience. Mine also acts as a positive stop so the wedge can't back out unless you turn the flat so the reverse mounted spring can pass by. I call it a "captured wedge".

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
Replica for sure. The cylinder notches are trapezoidal instead of rectangular. The cylinder says "U.S. DRAGOONS/PATENT 16570". This is obviously one of the replica cylinders which normally says "U.S. DRAGOONS/PATENT No." with the "No." scratched out. A real Colt cylinder should say "MODEL U.S.M.R./COLT'S PATENT" or "U.S. DRAGOONS/COLT'S PATENT" and just the last 4 digits of the serial number should be in between the two lines not following the second line.

The frame on this one says "COLT/PATENT" with a curved "COLT" and a straight "PATENT". It should say "COLT'S/PATENT" and they should both be straight.
There were a very few Dragoons with curved letters but I am pretty sure they were all early ones, Transitional Models and maybe some 1st Models but no 3rd Models to my knowledge.

The font on the barrel address is hard to see but my opinion is that it is the wrong font.
My overall opinion is that this is a pretty good effort for a defarbed reenactor piece but it is definately a fake.
 
Additional information. Regarding the frame markings, if this was a military issued Dragoon it should have the three line "COLT'S/PATENT/US" with all lines straight. The trigger guard would be a plain brass trigger guard. There were some Military Model 3rd Dragoons cut for shoulder stock with folding rear sight made for the civilian market that would indeed be marked with just two lines "COLT'S/PATENT" but those would also have a silver plated trigger guard. I don't see any remnants of silver plating on the trigger guard of this replica.

As for the barrel address I noticed something that definitely proves it's wrong on this replica. On a real one the "L" in "ADDRESS SAML COLT..." should be smaller in size than the rest of the letters. This replica has the "L" the same size as the rest of the letters so it is wrong.
 
As often as we have seen the smaller "L", I'm not sure the "L" in "ADDRESS SAML COLT..." was always smaller in size than the rest of the letters, but the font sure doesn't look right at all regardless, and I don't even see a hint of the "Y" in New York. It simply reads "ADDRESS SAML COLT NEW" At least part of the "Y" should be visible.
Lots of discrepancies can be seen even with the second rate pictures.
 
45 Dragoon - My reproduction 3rd model dragoon's sight is like the one in the GB auction in question.

It has reliefs cut in the front and rear blades but not in the shortest/center blade.

As you pointed out above, these are unlike the original which has reliefs cut out in all three blades.

How do the reliefs help in an iron sight?
 
Hey EK,
The relief removes depth of material so that any "tunnel vision" or light reflecting/refracting or ability for debris accumulation is also removed. It also gives a cleaner presentation of the intended optic.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
I messaged the guy telling him that we had determined his gun is Armi San Marco and that he needs to adjust his price accordingly in order to sell it. He replied with a "Thank you" but the auction is still up saying it is a Colt.
 
Saaman - If he has much in it, he was probably very skeptical of your expertise.

"It is very hard to get a man to do the right thing if his wallet is shrunk by doing so" to paraphrase an oft quoted axiom.

When ever I have been the bearer of bad news to a seller, I usually get a "mind your own business" Thank You.

Many just seem to think that I am trying to get the item at a lower price by lying to them.

Oh well, I've done my duty to the readers of THR by bringing this to their attention and you've warned the seller.

Now let's see if someone buys it.
 
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