Colt Marked ASM v/s Colt 2nd Gen

[Willie Sutton]

Well... another theory shot down in flames...

In another thread we were mooting if the Colt marked ASM 1860's were from the same parts source as Colt second generation, with ASM possibly using parts that were left over from Colt parts supply. As some here know, there are a few ASM made 1860's (and Walkers) of very high quality, with very good finish, and superb wood, that are marked with the full Colt Address on the top of the barrel. I've gotten three of the 1860's, all fluted (I thought that two were not, but they are all fluted), and I just was able to compare the barrel markings and other features to a second generation Colt 1860, also fluted.

Result? The Colt Address markings are different. Slightly different size, slightly different length of the entire marking. There are other contour differences in the machining of the entire revolver as well.

Finding? The Richardson imported ASM 1860's are finished to the same standard or better than the Colt, the wood is equal or nicer, fit is identical, and both are of superior quality to a Uberti and equal or better than a Centaure. This is all good. The bad? I think we've blown the theory that the barrel;s are left over from ASM providing any parts for the actual manufacture of Colt second gen 1860's.

Suspicion? The story that Val Forgett had ASM start up a Colt-Marked line of revolvers that didn't in the end result in a contract with Colt, but left an inventory of Colt marked parts at ASM that were assembled and imported by Richardson with the markings intact might be true. I can'rt speak to cylinder scene differences as the (4) cylinders in my sample set (3 ASM and 1 Colt) are all fluted and without a scene. The quality of these is IMMEASURABLY better than any other ASM production that I have seen.


Willie

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[elhombreconnonombre]

Willie
We still need to investigate the connection between the ASM Walkers and COLT 2 gen Walkers since the barrel marks are IDENTICAL per my inspections, same font size, same length, and same puncuation details, etc. Especially since both Val Forgett III and Lt. Col.RL Whittington have expressed some connection in that regard. Check your "new" ASM Walker When you get it and lets compare thoughts.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ That was the first thought that went thru my head. It would be interesting to find that ASM made the Walker parts and then wasn't selected to furnish parts for the 1860. There's a lot of industry history here waiting to be discovered.


Willie

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[Crawdad1]

A lot more complicated then anyone could have imagined. But don't we have 3 different production runs here? The 2nd Generation Colt 'C" series with a tan box, the 2nd generation Colt 'C' series with a wood grain box, and the 2nd generation Colt 'F' series with a black box. No?

Here is one box 'C' series Colt;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=410323140

and the other,

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=409409294

But both are 'C' series Colts 51' Navys.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Crawdaddy Pard, it's time for you to show your stuff and to give Willie a lesson. I've never become terribly familiar with the Colt Second generation stuff. My 1860 didn't come with a box, and it's the only sample I have for comparison with the ASM. Serial number is 2085xx with no other markings. It originally had a black box that seemed right but that had the wrong serial number on the end. The box was lost in Hurricaine Sandy and I can't give any more specifics. Differences in the Second Generation production? Let's hear it.


Willie

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[Crawdad1]

Mr. Sutton, I don't know. I wish I did.

I just discovered that by watching the on-line auctions and noticed 2 different boxes for the 'C' series Colts. I'm still trying to figure out which one is the older of the two or which one was the initial 2nd Generation run. And is there any differences other than the boxes, like the Colt address stampings on the barrel that you mentioned above.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Possibility then =

C series with ASM parts imported by Val Forgett and sent to Colt for assembly in Hartford

&

F series with Uberti parts imported by Lou Imperato and assembled in New Jersey and sent to Hartford for inspection and sale by Colt.


Possible? Hoof? Fingers?


<scratches head>...


Willie

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[Fingers McGee]

C series with ASM parts imported by Val Forgett and sent to Colt for assembly in Hartford
&
F series with Uberti parts imported by Lou Imperato and assembled in New Jersey and sent to Hartford for inspection and sale by Colt.

For the most part.

Towards the end of production of the 2nd Gens; there were some that were finished and assembled in Little Rock, AR - don't know how many or what models; but have see a couple 3rd model dragoons that came from there.

C series 2nd Gen 1851 Navies came in 3 different boxes.
1. Early SAA Style black flip top box. SN 4201 through 5199 in 1971
2. Tan and Brown flip top box, SN 5200 through 13499 from 1971 through 1974
3. Brown woodgrain box with Styrofoam inserts, SN 13500 through 24899 from 1974 through 1978.

There were also C series 3rd Model Dragoons that came in the woodgrained boxes only. Serial numbers 20901 through 25099 from 1974 through 1978.

The 1851 Navies and 3rd Model dragoons as well as all other 2nd gen models that were made between 1978 and 1982 were F series and came in the black and gold boxes with foam rubber inserts.

As far as the ASM connection goes; I believe it was the Sig Series (1994-2002) that used ASM parts, and was the source of the Colt marked ASMs.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Curiouser and curioser.
The paperwork I received with my Whittington Arms Walker included Whittingtons1984 seminal book on the Walker and a letter stating: " Manufactured and test fired in Italy by Armi San Marco, the same fabricators of the Colt Walker réplicas assembled in 1981 and 1982." wait....what?????????
The only Italian mark on the Whittington Walker is the cylinder proof mark. My other ASM Walker came in an ASM gray Box, has an early 80s date Mark and an Italian proof mark on the cylinder, but otherwise is an exact duplicate of the 2nd gen F series Walker in fit, Blue and cch finish, and engraving details. This would have predated the 3rd Gen by over a decade. I have no doubt that this one and the one that Willie just bought at auction is one of the unauthorized ASM Walkers with Colt and Italian markings made in the early 80s by ASM, but who imported them?
Then there is that other ASM connection that Val Forgett III mentioned. Could that be that refer to the 3rd gen that Fingers mentioned? Now I guess we need to compare a 3rd gen Walker marks with that of Willies and my ASM Colt marked Walkers.
Down the rabbit hole we go. ;-)

 

[Willie Sutton]

Fingers, thanks.

One data point: The first pair of Richardson imported (and so marked) Colt Address marked ASM's were bought from the estate of a fairly famous fighter pilot who had authored a book on flying. His estate thought that his name added value to the revolvers so they came with a letter attesting to his ownership and further setting forth the date he purchased them. Sadly the letter was destroyed along with much of my other ephemera in Hurricane Sandy, but my recollection (which nay very well be faulty) is that the date of his original purchase predates the Signature Series production. It's a shame that the letter was lost, but that's the best I can do. The cure for this will be a look at the date code on the proof mark, ought to be able to do that later today. Thanks for the tip on the Signature Seris link.

Elhombre, the Walker is paid for and I await receipt, I'll photograph it and share details. That's a VERY interesting statement you found in your documentation. Seems that there was a lot of cross-pollination going on in the industry on the Colt project.

I've never seen another Colt marked 1860 of this finish level imported by anyone other than Richardson (and within that subset, all three have been fluted cylinders). Be interesting to figure out what other versions (if any) imported by any others (if any) surface.

I ought to examine a Signature Series 1860 and compare side by side to the Richardson. That would shed some additional light on things. And who knows anything about Richardson?


Willie

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[elhombreconnonombre]

Like I said down the rabbit hole. I have brought up this ASM "connection" over at the Colt Forum with no definitive answers even from heavy 2nd/3rd gen Colt collectors that also own 1st gen Walkers - YEP the holy trail of Colt collectors. It is interesting to note that the ASM and 2nd/3rd gen Walker barrel marks are close, but not identical to the original Colt Walker marks. I don't know about other Colt models.

 

[Crawdad1]

As Will mentioned above, the comparison should start at the Colt address on the top of the barrel. That may give us an idea of which manufacturer was using which stamps and when were they using them.........Hopefully.

 

[Fingers McGee]

One data point: The first pair of Richardson imported (and so marked) Colt Address marked ASM's were bought from the estate of a fairly famous fighter pilot who had authored a book on flying. His estate thought that his name added value to the revolvers so they came with a letter attesting to his ownership and further setting forth the date he purchased them. Sadly the letter was destroyed along with much of my other ephemera in Hurricane Sandy, but my recollection (which nay very well be faulty) is that the date of his original purchase predates the Signature Series production. It's a shame that the letter was lost, but that's the best I can do. The cure for this will be a look at the date code on the proof mark, ought to be able to do that later today. Thanks for the tip on the Signature Series link.

Willie, my recollection could very well be wrong. On rethinking this in the light of day - the ASM connection could very well be with the 2nd Gens and not the Sig Series. ASM went belly up in 2000 after a few years of sub standard product.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Periodically someone posts pics of old antique looking Walkers over at the Colt Forum asking what these are that they "found", came across. Everyone gets all excited until they post detailed pics of the barrel engravings. Invariably, most of the forum members agree that they are well done artificially aged and antiqued ASMs or Colt 2nd gen Walkers, or sometimes Ubertis (with added Colt barrel marks). The barrel marks on the ASMs and the Colt 2nd gens from the factory are close but no ceegar reproductions of the originals, but the punctuation details are off. Likewise for the cylinder engraving details. The mounted trooper on the "black" horse, reportedly Walker with Hays following on the "white" horse has a slight peak on his forage cap on the replicas while there is virtually no peak on the cap engraved on the original, the cap being rather flat fore to aft.

 

[Crawdad1]

Sad, but you can measure the value of something by noting how much fraud or scams are associated with it. I read somewhere that people were creating “fake” original Colt Python boxes that were for sale on the internet.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I found an ASM Pocket Navy with the Colt barrel address on GB.

Had to have it!!!

It is a beauty and functions very smoothly.

I read a thread somewhere that said some ASM pocket police were Colt marked too.

That leaves the 1851 of Navy caliber for someone to find and post!

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Here is another weird one that nobody has ever been able to answer for me. I have an 1851 Colt reproduction. On top of the barrel it is marked Euroams of America. On the right side next the rammer the barrel is marked ASM Black Powder only. From what I have always read was that ASP became Euroarms. It wouldn't seem logical to me to sell your competitors product. I realize that Euromarms of America is just an importing and distribution company but it still seems odd to me. BTW is is a very nice revolver with CCH frame and tight lockup.

It looks to be 1993 or 94 dated. Out of all the BP revolvers I own this is only that all the other markings are on the bottom of the receiver and barrel in front of the trigger guard and it is crowded. Really clean looking as far as markings. not plastered all over the gun like so many others I own or have owned. The only one you would really notice is the Euroarms of America on top of the barrel and even it isn't really that noticeable at first glance. Another odd thing, there is only one serial number on the whole gun, on the bottom of the frame, but it not a kit because it has proof marks and too nice looking to be one.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Gaucho Gringo

Here is the Euroarms web site address:

http://www.euroarms.net/euroarms_netcompany_file/summary.htm

I could find nothing about their historical suppliers and they no longer offer the 1851.

They do have a customer contact email.

I heard something about Pedersoli buying Euroarms out but their site is still up so maybe customer service is still operative.

They have a great schematic of your 1851.

Good luck with your research.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Just when ya figger a thread is dead and gone forever, it gets reanimated. Well now we have ASM 1851 Navys, 1860 Armys, and Walkers with close but no ceegar Colt barrel marks, from what I have determined were made in the early 80s, at the time the F Series 2nd Gen colts came out. Ya know Dr. Davis of the Replica Percussion Revolver Collectors Assoc. Museum could probably answer this Colt marked ASM question. I just havent had time to email him. It interesting to note that absolutly no one over at the Colt Black Powder Revolver Forum has had anything that sheds light on this subject.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

My new find is an ASM 1862 Pocket Navy.

I think we are still waiting for an ASM 1851 with Colt barrel address to show up.

Anybody got one??? I want one!!!

 

[madcratebuilder]

Willie, my recollection could very well be wrong. On rethinking this in the light of day - the ASM connection could very well be with the 2nd Gens and not the Sig Series. ASM went belly up in 2000 after a few years of sub standard product.

As I recall some of the ASM/Colt marked barrels were bought by a well known importer as "parts" after ASM went belly up and could have ended up as parts in sig series guns.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

All the ASMs with Colt barrel marks I have come across have had at least the PN mark on the cylinder with various non-Colt serial marks as far as placement is concerned.

 

[Crawdad1]

Even a firearm made from a 'Kit' will have a 'Proof mark' on it if made overseas and this in itself will distinguish it from a 2nd or 3rd generation Colt. You can also have the revolver 'Lettered' from Colt.

Proof may be defined as the compulsory testing of every new firearm before sale and the Definitive Proof... All weapons must undergo this, either in the "white" or when fully finished.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I got out my other ASM 1862 Pocket Revolver of Navy Caliber (AP/1986) to compare it with the new one.

They are almost twins.

Of course only the new one has the Colt barrel inscription but I also found a difference in the 5 chamber rebated cylinders.

The new one has "COLTS PATENT" above "No." and the blank for the serial number while the one with the unmarked barrel just has the "No." and blank space without the "COLTS PATENT" above it.

Both have the stagecoach hold up scene engraved but there must be some difference in the engravings since there is no gap in the second one above the "No." and serial number space.

The Colt marked one's serial number has an "A" prefix and is 18386 greater than the unmarked one that was proofed just the year before.

My Colt marked ASM 1860 (AL/1983) has a fully fluted cylinder so it can't provide any help with the cylinder markings though its barrel marking is the same as the 1862's.

Does anyone have a Colt marked ASM 1860 with an engraved cylinder to compare with a normal ASM 1860's cylinder?

If the marked barrels went with specially marked cylinders it would seem that ASM was doing more than just trying to use up the marked barrels they tried to sell to Colt.

Also from 1983 to 1987 seems like a long time for Colt to have allowed this practice to go on.

Does anyone have other dates for Colt marked ASM products?

Does anyone remember when exactly Colt sued ASM and how long it took for ASM to stop producing Colt marked guns?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Crawdaddie
Where are the proof marks for U.S. replicas and modern offerings?