Experts on THR

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444- good thread.

"Expert" or expert? Depends. There's plenty of wannabe "experts" out there. (Buckshot is the thing for dangerous game:D) And there are experts who are the real thing.

There is a fallacious notion in American society that each individual has a right to his opinion on any subject. With the implication that his opinion is as good as anyone else's...and better than most.

Sorry, my opinions on the correct methods of plumbing are not equal to a master plumber's opionions in his field of expertise. Nor are my opinions on brain surgery equal to the opinions of a neurosurgeon.

And my experience with various areas of shooting and hunting do not make my opinions equal to someone who has thousands of hours more experience than I do.

When I'm discussing their areas of expertise with them, it would be of great benefit to 1) listen 2)ask questions and 3) give them the same courtesy I give anyone else.
 
REALITY SELF-CHECK:

Friends, in the last few prolonged discussions of contrary viewpoints that you've had with other people, did you ever find yourself admitting that the other party had made a good point, or even that you might well be wrong?

No? :confused:

If the answer really is no, then I submit that you've been wasting your time, and likely the time of the others you've been discussing (or arguing) with.

Why?

Because if you're finding yourself to never be wrong, or at least correctable on a given position, then you are either:
  • Sometimes wrong, and are too closed-minded to learn and realize it, or
  • Arguing with complete imbeciles who could never be right, and who thus are not worth arguing with.


If someone is worthy of your argument, they're worthy of your respect. Take the time and holster your ego and learn. :)
 
I can't help but think back over my own life, after having read all these posts.

I got into car racing back in the mid-1950s. That led to a beginning at auto mechanics. I got my degree in mechanical engineering and worked a year at the Chev test lab and then wound up in a state agency in Texas. For "side money", I started doing tuneups and brake jobs and then valve jobs and engine overhauls for both myself and for occasional customers. I got into sports car racing as a one-man band, doing all my own work.

I became the Car Guru where I worked. People knew what I was doing. People would come to me with questions, describing problems and then asking for solutions and costs. I'd give an answer based on several experiences, and bless Pat if they wouldn't argue! And these were people who knew me and of my experiences, face to face!

Fast forward to the Internet and its anonymity. IMO, if people get answers that don't suit them, or answers they don't understand, they just can't accept them. (Some people, not all.) The anonymity makes them feel safe in responding with some sort of flaming behavior...

Now, I've been "messin'" with guns for some sixty years. I don't claim to know all there is to know, but I'm not "eat up with the stoopids", either. Lots of folks here know more about the specifics of certain firearms than I do. Or scopes. Or African hunting. Or Alaskan bears. I have a a pretty good memory, however, about the gist of comments during my years at TFL and THR.

So I don't lay any claim to being an expert. I don't think of myself as any sort of Guru. You'll notice that I generally don't "give advice". I comment about what has worked for me and what I've learned, and if that doesn't suit somebody, "Surf on, Bubba!". :D

Art
 
I work in an R&D environment, and we have a saying around here - "An expert is the guy who knows one more fact than the next guy."

Jeff Cooper once said that "Just because a man has been there and done that, doesn't mean he knows what the h*** he's talking about."

Let's take an example. Suppose a hypothetical poster at THR is an assembler for S&W revolvers, and has been at it for 30 years. Many would consider him to be an "expert" on S&W revolvers, and regard anything he said about S&W revolvers to be gospel.

BUT - as an assembler, his "expertise" consists of putting them together so they meet S&W standards. It's unlikely that the revolvers he's "expertly" put together will meet with the approval of, say, a top level PPC revolver champion, who will most likely take the "expertly" assembled revolver to a custom 'smith for tuning.

And who knows - maybe the revolvers he puts together "barely" meet S&W's standards, but he's still on the job because he's fast at squeaking by. We've probably all met people who've been on the job for a long time and yet have job skills that are somewhat less than exemplary. Maybe our hypothetical "expert" thinks that "good enough is perfect."

AND - this is very important - as an S&W employee, our hypothetical revolver expert assembler should NOT be regarded as an objective source of information - his "expert opinions" WILL be shaded by his own self interest, since his paycheck depends on his keeping his job and his employer's business remaining healthy. Even "expert opinions" may be shaded by vested interests and a lack of objectivity - even if there's no deliberate attempt at deception.
 
Both the "just good enough" assembler of S&W revolvers and the gunsmith who tunes the S&W revolvers assembled by the "just good enough" S&W assembler trump my knowledge of S&W revolvers. Seems to me I should learn from both of them. And then decide which is pertinent to my needs. Each of these guys' opinions on S&W revolvers far outweigh my opinions on S&W revolvers.
 
Each of these guys' opinions on S&W revolvers far outweigh my opinions on S&W revolvers.
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Same here . . . to a point. But just because they have more experience, doesn't mean they're infallible, or that what they say should be blindly accepted. Experts can be wrong - and often are. Disturbingly often, in the firearms arena.

How many times here at THR (and at TFL) have people reported being given factually incorrect advice on firearms law by the presumed "experts" at BATF, or for that matter, other LEOs? (Dillon's latest "Blue Press" catalog contains a story of two BATF agents seizing a Thompson SMG as an unlicensed machine gun . . . only problem was, these presumed "experts" didn't recognize it as a non-firing movie prop.)

And what happens when "experts" disagree? When it comes to handgun stopping power, we have Martin Facker on one side, and Evan Marshall on the other. Both experts - yet little or no agreement.

Jeff Cooper is widely regarded as an expert, and, in truth, many of his opinions rightly carry a lot of weight. But . . . by every measurment, his beloved .45 is not quite the hammer of Thor he thinks it is, nor is the 9mm the worthless wimpy pipsqueak he claims. And his opinions on rifles are, in many cases, well, questionable.

Don't get me wrong - "experts" have much to offer, and I'd certainly listen to what my hypothetical S&W assembler had to say. But I'd ask questions, weigh his answers . . . and if something didn't add up, maybe get a second opinion.
 
I work in an R&D environment, and we have a saying around here - "An expert is the guy who knows one more fact than the next guy."

Jeff Cooper once said that "Just because a man has been there and done that, doesn't mean he knows what the h*** he's talking about."

Let's take an example. Suppose a hypothetical poster at THR is an assembler for S&W revolvers, and has been at it for 30 years. Many would consider him to be an "expert" on S&W revolvers, and regard anything he said about S&W revolvers to be gospel.

BUT - as an assembler, his "expertise" consists of putting them together so they meet S&W standards. It's unlikely that the revolvers he's "expertly" put together will meet with the approval of, say, a top level PPC revolver champion, who will most likely take the "expertly" assembled revolver to a custom 'smith for tuning.

And who knows - maybe the revolvers he puts together "barely" meet S&W's standards, but he's still on the job because he's fast at squeaking by. We've probably all met people who've been on the job for a long time and yet have job skills that are somewhat less than exemplary. Maybe our hypothetical "expert" thinks that "good enough is perfect."

AND - this is very important - as an S&W employee, our hypothetical revolver expert assembler should NOT be regarded as an objective source of information - his "expert opinions" WILL be shaded by his own self interest, since his paycheck depends on his keeping his job and his employer's business remaining healthy. Even "expert opinions" may be shaded by vested interests and a lack of objectivity - even if there's no deliberate attempt at deception.
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Hank, that's a good illustration, but let me tell you kind of what we're talking about here. Take the S&W assembler. We'll call him Jake. Let's say that not only is Jake the assembler, but he's also the guy that designed the revolver that he assembles. They let's say that someone on the board starts discussing the mechanics of the revolver he assembles. Jake makes a few comments on the discussion, hoping to clear up some misconceptions. Another member of our forum decides to hop in the middle of the discussion and comment that revolver assemblers are all morons. Now, keep in mind that Jake is the person that designed the revolver from scratch and hand assembles every single one. This makes Jake the foremost expert on this subject. The other member, not knowing who Jake is, proceeds to flap his mouth about how revolver assemblers are morons, driving Jake to stop "wasting" his time on this board. We now no longer have Jake as a resource on this board.

Jeff Cooper is widely regarded as an expert, and, in truth, many of his opinions rightly carry a lot of weight. But . . . by every measurment, his beloved .45 is not quite the hammer of Thor he thinks it is, nor is the 9mm the worthless wimpy pipsqueak he claims. And his opinions on rifles are, in many cases, well, questionable.

Don't get me wrong - "experts" have much to offer, and I'd certainly listen to what my hypothetical S&W assembler had to say. But I'd ask questions, weigh his answers . . . and if something didn't add up, maybe get a second opinion.
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Yes, but would you call Col. Cooper the following: "hacks, shills and boobs whose information was riddled with flaws, inaccuaracies,blatant lies, and ignorance."?
 
Great post, 444!

Always considered that I knew a thing or two about some things, & I do, but am certainly no expert - even after 40+ years reloading & better'n that hunting.

I remember Gayle's TFL thread on fluting rifle barrels ("yup, 'cause they get $2 an inch per cut." ROTFLMAF on that one!) & his threads on barrel cleaning.

H&HHunter has taught me reams about huntings things I thought I knew pretty well.

... bunch more.

Art's classic, quoted reply re the Beltway "Snipers," = "they experience a degree of shooting sophistication of any normal 12 year-old rural kid." Classic! I'd thought the same the, but hadn't the words = so apt.

& CRSam's short-liners always made me want to yak less ... but, there I go again.

Back to listening to the experts.

:D
 
I think this thread is why THR (&TFL) is such a valuable resource. Not too many forums have the thoughtful, well written posts found here; forums about guns, knives and "tactical things" tend to even less. I am proud to read most of what is printed here, anyone who wanted to stereotype firearms owners would have to go elsewhere to feed their agenda. Most of the time.;)
 
Let's say that not only is Jake the assembler, but he's also the guy that designed the revolver that he assembles . . .
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TechBrute: You make some good points - but let's say that instead of working for S&W, Jake designed and built the Colt All American 2000 pistol. That would make Jake the foremost expert on its design. But . . . would it make him a competent gun designer? And if he were to show up here and start praising it, should the guys who had one or tested one just shut up and refrain from criticism, lest we lose an expert resource? Hmmm . . .
. . . would you call Col. Cooper the following: "hacks, shills and boobs whose information was riddled with flaws, inaccuaracies,blatant lies, and ignorance."?
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Uhhh . . . well, you quoted my post, and you'll notice, I didn't, though I believe it was clear that I disagree with the Colonel in some areas.

OTOH I've encountered some gunwriters/posters/ad writers who would fit in the category of "hacks, shills and boobs . . ." ;)

Bottom line - if a person represents himself as an expert - especially in an area in which he has a vested interest - he should expect to be challenged, and be ready, willing, and able to defend himself or his position, as long as the discourse remains reasonably civil.
 
I think the most important thing is for all of us to...know what we don't know....you know.....

Seriously...I get a kick out of how often people act like ANY criticism of their favorite weapon system is akin to being told that their kids are stupid...

Maybe my kids dad is stupid but.......hey...wait a minute!


:uhoh:

To overuse the Pat Rogers analogy ( And yes , Pat has told me on a least one occaison to "bite him"...hard to believe he didn't appreciate my sense of humor I know)

Pat, when he teaches presents A WAY...Not THE WAY...

But his way is at least proven...in the real world.

And just try to get a product review out of him before he is ready to render a judgement...not gonna happen.

And yet we have scores of people here that will give glowing reports based on what someone told them that they heard that someone read .

Or saw in a gunrag...PLEASE:barf:

We have self proclaimed experts willing to tell you to "throw away" your new handgun , carbine etc.....just because they don't want one....

I am all for squashing bad information of the type that could get someone hurt.....

But there is a whole lot of this information that is totally subjective...depends on your preferences...
 
To overuse the Pat Rogers analogy...
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Well, basically this whole thread was sparked because someone wanted to argue with Pat about an article that HE was interview for, about a pistol that HE wrote the specs for. In the member's defense, I'm sure he didn't know who he was talking to, but he also didn't know when to can it, either. (Something that I'm guilty of, from time to time.)

The thread that sparked it all...
 
Hey now, how do you know what started it ? :scrutiny:
Actually , that thread didn't start it, it was only one, of a few threads I have read over the years that took the same path.
I am sure the gentleman didn't know Pat's background and thought it was just another clown like me. I feel certain that if that gentleman knew what was going on that none of that would have happened. Which is why I suggest keeping an open mind and suspecting that some of those people on the other end of the computer might be experts in every sense of the word.

Jeff Cooper, a name that seems to crop up regularly.
"I believe it was clear that I disagree with the Colonel in some areas."
Me too. But not many.
Colonel Cooper is a good example because we know some of his background. He is fairly highly educated, served as a Marine officer in combat, put together from many sources what is referred to as "The Modern Technique of the Pistol", was one of the founders of what we refer to as "Practical Shooting" today. Started what was to become one of the top two or three firearms training facilities in the world that regularly trains people from all walks of life including elite military units as well as law enforcement officers of all flavors from all over the world. Was a mainstream gun writer for magazines and has published at least a half dozen books. Spent probably 40 years right in the heart of the "click" of the gun culture, hobnobbing with the elite of the industry and shooting sports, has had more than one gun manufactured by large firearms companies named after either him or his school...........................
This doesn't make him always right, but it makes him somone that I pay particular attention to and think long and hard before I disagree with him. Certainly he isn't someone I would get into a petty squabble with over the internet......or anywhere else for that matter.
 
Hey now, how do you know what started it ?
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My bad. I assumed, and you know what happens when you assume...:D

I probably should have called it "the thread that broke the camel's back."
 
Pretty interesting thread.

I see one big problem with the internet. Every idiot has an opinion. Even if I know 100% that I am right there is only so long I can argue with some fool before I feel like I am pissing into the wind. The internet allows a lot of incompetents to say stuff that is total BS. I think it takes a while to learn who are the people out there that arent just posting because they trully have nothing better to do while their porn is downloading. :)
 
Well now, let's talk about expertise...At this here very board (and its predecessor) I have been involved in a good many discussions with fellow members about the public education system. The sole claim to expertise that most members have is that they were students, once. Did that stop them from explaining to me _at great and vituperative length_the the educational system is, in fact, a commie-NAMBLA-NEA-Democrat-Nazi-Illuminati-Elders of Zion plot to subvert all that is good, patriotic, and Xtian about America? No. Likewise, has the fact that most of what they think they know about police work is what they've seen on Teevee EVER stopped my fellow members from second guessing or criticizing the actions of a cop? No. And EVERY LAST BLEEDING ONE OF US just HAS to offer up his/her two cents about what the various politicians are or aren't doing right, though none of us have ever done their jobs. If the various gun experts that may have passed through can't take the heat, then I submit that the kitchen door is just over there...
 
I would plead with the "very knowledgable and experienced" (instead of expert) shooters on this site not to be put off or run off by some cretin hiding behind a keyboard, throwing rocks at what he doesn't understand. Happy New Year y'all.
 
Perhaps I can be of help here because I am an expert on virtually any subject so if you have any questions feel free to ask and if upon that rare instance I dont know the answer I will lie so seamlessly that even if you know Im lying you will still belive me
Molon Labrador (come and take my big black dog)
 
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