My pet peeve on guns, shooting, training and tactics.

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Charles S

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Gentleman and Ladies,

I do not mean any disrespect, but as has been stated before owning a firearm no more makes you an expert on shooting than does owning a violin make you a musician.

If you have not had any training and/or experience then you are not an expert.

It really bugs me when someone tells me they have no need for night sights on a handgun, but then later explain they have never shot at night.

When someone espouses an opinion on the fact that they only need the magazine in the gun, but they have never taken a training class.

When someone espouses a set of tactics and has no experience and has never been to a training class.

Decide their tactic is the very best (and the rest of us are paranoid and looking for a gunfight) and then ignore real experts opinion.

Gentleman and Ladies,

If you are a professional with experience, I want to hear your opinions.

If you are have had training, lets hear about it. Tell us what you have learned, we all can learn from you.

If you have never had any training, and have no experience, before you let us know what you think please enclose the following (I have no idea what I am talking about, but:).

Please learn from the people on the board with knowledge and experience. Take the time and spend the money to get training from one of the many very good classes available. You will never regret it.

Sorry for the rant.

Charles
 
But how do we know you really have experience at ranting? This could be your first time. :neener:



Seriously, you need to keep in mind that anyone can post here. There is no way to know for sure who anyone is or what their true experience level is. I could post that I'm an ex-super-secret-squirrel-Delta-sniper, and nobody would know at first if I was for real or not. You have to learn to trust (or distrust) people based upon what they have said in the past.

We try to keep things on the up and up here, which is one of the reasons I post here more than anywhere else. We still occasionally have people post things that make you go :scrutiny: and :rolleyes: . But they generally get weeded out pretty quickly. Also remember that even people who have really BTDT do not agree on everything. THR has one of the highest signal to noise ratios around. If you are complaining about potential poseurs here, make sure you never go to Glock Talk or ARF.com. ;)
 
Chipperman - I agree 100 per cent.
Charles S. - You make a very good point.
What I read here, or anywhere, I do not take as the absolute truth. No matter who you are talking to, in real life or the net, some people do not know what they are talking about, or pretend that they do know something. It usually does not take long to weed these folks out.
I like this site and enjoy engaging in the different subjects. I have leaned alot, and hopefully have helped out a few people in the meantime.
 
But how do we know you really have experience at ranting? This could be your first time.
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Actually (hangs head and kicks the ground) this is my first rant, and overall I am sure I can use some improvement, but I am willing to learn from those with experience.:D

make sure you never go to Glock Talk or ARF.com.
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Not a problem, I found I really did not enjoy those boards.

Actually about the only places I post and read are THR and TFL.

Charles
 
Chipperman,

I knew I recognized you from somewhere,
Sniper 4: Super-Secret-Squirrel-Delta Revenge!


:D

Seriously though, I don't think I've ever witnessed an online community that didn't have its share of overstuffed armchair what-have-yous.

That said, I find THR member generally express their opinions and experiences as just that, opinions and experiences.


B.
 
"It really bugs me when someone tells me they have no need for night sights on a handgun, but then later explain they have never shot at night."

Why? Do the night sights help with target identification? If you can see the target why can't you see the sights? Just curious?

Is the completion of training enough, or does it need to be good training?

As usual I have more questions than answers?

John
 
"It really bugs me when someone tells me they have no need for night sights on a handgun, but then later explain they have never shot at night."

Why? Do the night sights help with target identification? If you can see the target why can't you see the sights? Just curious?
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I'll tell you my learning experience and why I now have night sights on carry guns.

I showed up at a class with my IDPA gun which has a black rear and an FO front. Well, I did really well with it...during the day. When it came to the night portion, I couldn't acquire squat, even with a light. Now, my preferred carry gun wears a tritium front and a blank rear (blank rear only because the 2-dot rear really messes with me when shooting anything other than low-light--personl preference, YMMV).

IMO, if there is a chance you will ever have to shoot in the dark, it's better to know where your sights are than to not.

Greg
 
Why? Do the night sights help with target identification? If you can see the target why can't you see the sights? Just curious?
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Shoot a night combat course both with and without night sights and then you will realize how much better you can shoot at night with night sights.

I have shot night combat courses both with and without night sight, with and without a quality combat light and I firmly believe that both are essential.

There are a number of situation where the target can be identified but you cannot easily see your sights, for example you are in a situation where the light source is coming from behind the target.

If I could only have a light or night sights I would choose a light, but I believe that both are better.

That is my opinion and until you train/and or shoot at night you will not be able to evaluate it against your own training and experience.

Is the completion of training enough, or does it need to be good training?
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Your skills will only be as good as your training and practice.

Charles
 
There are many instances where you can clearly ID your target, but still have trouble seeing the sights. Night Sights help immensely. If you do some low light or night shooting some time, you will quickly see what I mean. They do not help ID the target, but do help you hit it.

Poor training can be worse than no training. Good training does not have to be a $10,000 trip to Joe Tacticool's School for Uber Operators. It can be as simple as you practicing by yourself in your backyard.
 
"When someone espouses an opinion on the fact that they only need the magazine in the gun, but they have never taken a training class."

Do training classes cause one to need more magazines? :D

I can't put my finger on it, but something ain't right with your rant. While we all have a responsibility to try not to spout nonsense and drivel, the reader must surely be responsible for sifting the wheat from the chaff. Also, I get a great deal of value out of reading the interplay between experts and amateurs, between convention and novelty. I would miss that.

Or, could be I'm just annoyed because I'm not an expert at anything, and don't look forward to a read-only experience at THR.
 
See, isn't it more fun when people post what they know instead of ranting about what other people don't know? I think so.

Meanwhile, my relatives fought in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, and WWII. My father has 2 Honorable Discharges from the Army Air Force and was a State Trooper, but I don't think any of them had any really good formal training - so they must have been lucky. I hope I inherited that gene. I inherited a love of firearms along with the guns. ;)

John
 
If you have not had any training and/or experience then you are not an expert.
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Training does not necessarily make you an expert. Many times, experience really doesn't either. I have seen some pretty off the wall comments from people with experience. The AR threads can be pretty wild.

It really bugs me when someone tells me they have no need for night sights on a handgun, but then later explain they have never shot at night.
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Do you really NEED them? or Do they improve the ability the aim and hit the target at night? Two different questions to me. I agree night sites are a big improvement. I assume you mean that training gives you a better perception of how you will use them and why they can be important.

When someone espouses an opinion on the fact that they only need the magazine in the gun, but they have never taken a training class.
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What does a training class have to do with that?

When someone espouses a set of tactics and has no experience and has never been to a training class.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but see my first comment. :)

Decide their tactic is the very best (and the rest of us are paranoid and looking for a gunfight) and then ignore real experts opinion.
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Arrogance is irritating regardless of who it comes from.


I have no idea what I am talking about, but. :D you seem to be saying, "If you don't have direct training/experience, then be quiet and listen to your betters." The better strategy for posters, IMAO, is: Talk about what you know and always be willing to listen to others and new ideas, and recognize better ideas without acting like someone killed your first born. Never assume you are an expert or know more than everyone else.

Another add on: Everyone should realize that not everyone is a training writer or technical writer. Most posters can have problems getting their precise point across in their posts or come across heavy-handed without meaning to. I know I do sometimes. It is sometimes funny to watch posters argue who actually agree.
 
Training does not necessarily make you an expert. Many times, experience really doesn't either. I have seen some pretty off the wall comments from people with experience. The AR threads can be pretty wild.
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I agree, but some training, preferably quality training will generally change your overall perspective.

In my first training class, I realized I had a few things right, I had brought a gun, my ammo was the right ammo for the gun, I had the right magazines and I had a good holster. Other than that I had a lot to learn.

When someone espouses an opinion on the fact that they only need the magazine in the gun, but they have never taken a training class.
Click to expand...

You realize it is really hard to clear certain types of malfunctions without an additional magazine.

I have no idea what I am talking about, but. you seem to be saying, "If you don't have direct training/experience, then be quiet and listen to your betters." The better strategy for posters, IMAO, is: Talk about what you know and always be willing to listen to others and new ideas, and recognize better ideas without acting like someone killed your first born. Never assume you are an expert or know more than everyone else.
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Well stated, I agree. Actually you articulated the idea much better than I did.

Charles
 
Charles S,

I appreciate your original post and additional postings - I agree.

Also I appreciate the replies so far -
Especially with THR and TFL continuing to raise the bar for all Internet gun forums.

One can only share their experiences , and we all learn from each other experiences.

Even the ones that we feel do not apply to us at this moment, i.e. perhaps someone reading something in Shotguns, or Blackpowder forum -though they do not shoot BP or the Shotgun - some day they may, or, these sharings may be of benefit to someone they know that does.

"To keep it - give it away"

Means we listen, learn and pass forward what is shared.

Again my thanks for orginial post and replies.


Regards,

Steve
 
You get a lot of people walking the bullsh-- plank and you have to filter it out one ear through the other. But the High Road is a great place to pick up on lots of tid bits.
 
All you need is a wheel barrow, a bunch of peanut butter, an AR-15 w/ a 10" barrel, supressor, and a .22LR kit. You can survive anything with that setup.

:evil:
 
I just want to add that if because we are all, essentially anonymous, and anyone can post and say anything and that some would argue to disregard all of what you read on the net and here at THR, then what would be the point of even being here? I think there is a lot of "good stuff" to glean. You just need to be careful and verify facts from multiple sources.
 
Quote:
When someone espouses an opinion on the fact that they only need the magazine in the gun, but they have never taken a training class.

What does a training class have to do with that?


Quote:
When someone espouses a set of tactics and has no experience and has never been to a training class.

Agreed, but see my first comment.


Quote:
Decide their tactic is the very best (and the rest of us are paranoid and looking for a gunfight) and then ignore real experts opinion.

Arrogance is irritating regardless of who it comes from.


I have no idea what I am talking about, but. you seem to be saying, "If you don't have direct training/experience, then be quiet and listen to your betters." The better strategy for posters, IMAO, is: Talk about what you know and always be willing to listen to others and new ideas, and recognize better ideas without acting like someone killed your first born. Never assume you are an expert or know more than everyone else.
Click to expand...

+10000

You know, the older I get the more I realize how little I really know. I certainly hope I never get so arrogant as to believe I'm an expert at guns, because that will be the exact point at which my knowledge of guns ceases to expand, and I would truly hate for that to happen.

But let's address this training thing, okay? In my total time going to school I took exactly ONE computer science course, yet I made my living developing software and was good enough at it that I retired at the ripe old age of 49. Most of the people I know that were Computer Science majors are still working in the work force...hmmmmmmmmm....

I never took a single class on how to play the guitar, yet I earned a decent living at it as a full-time session musician in recording studios in Nashville and Memphis during my youth.

HOW CAN THAT BE?????!!!!!!!

It's called reading, studying and practicing, and not being so arrogant as to believe you are an expert at anything. That's the key to learning about anything....NOT attending classes.
 
Charles, you raise a good point, and I agree with the replies that have been posted.

One of the most valuable things I've found here is the ability to take a question, search the threads for answers, or post a new topic, and see what people think and how they came to think it.

Whether they are "experts" or not, doesn't really carry any weight...after all, "expert" is a very subjective term.

More than anything, I read to see what the reasoning is that a poster uses to support his/her position. I skip short, useless opinions, and go to the well thought out replies. I can't argue with an opinion, but I am free to objectively accept or reject a conclusion based on the thought process that went into it.
 
Charles S, did I miss it or did you decide not to take your own advice and have opted not to post what your experience is, your training, etc.? Since you are making an epistomoloigcal call for a change in the behavior of board members for how they post, I found it interesting that you did not post a disclaimer on your epistostomological background which would have either been a list of your training or experience in the filed or a statement, "I have no epistomological idea what I am talking about, but I would like to see these changes in how information is presented so that I may better hope to understand the information contained within this forum."

FYI, training and experience does not necessarily make you an expert either. There are folks with more than 20 years experience in a given field who are merely familiar with its components, but not experts. Some can only restate that which they have learned and not know whether or not it is GIGO, but since they have been saying it for so long, they believe it to be true.

And there are those for whom extensive training has only made them an expert in getting extensive training, but not necessarily terribly proficient, knowing, or functional. Similarly, there are those who have attended gun schools who can do no more intellectually than restate what instructors have said and if queried for explanation offer nothing more than, "Clint Smith said so" or something similar. I am not picking on Clint Smith, but using his name here as a classic example. While it is nice to have folks offer what Clint Smith or other gurus told them, "Clint Smith said so" isn't an explanation. What many gun school student "experts" fail to take away from gun schools is the rationale for why Clint Smith or other gurus said what they said or gave the type of instruction they gave.

One of the better statements reflecting a lacking of understanding about what has been learned is something like, "Well, it it is good enough for Clint Smith, then it is good enough for me." Here, they have failed to take into consideration that they aren't Clint Smith in that they don't have his training, background, and experience and don't share his everyday context of life. What is good enough for Clint Smith is what Clint Smith feels works for his particular situation as Clint Smith. Particularly unique about Clint Smith that is not shared by most of us, at least while in Texas, is that he had a functional cannon and a very proficient wife.

The thing is that you don't have to be an expert to have good information. If somebody recapitulates what they have been teaching for the last 20 years but doing actually fully grasp what they are saying may fail to make them an expert, but what they say may be good information. It is not necessarily good information just because they have taught it for 20 years, however. The non-expert student who has attended every Thunder Ranch class offered and who can only offer as explanation, "It is what Clint Smith said" may not have an expert understanding of the subject, but may be doing a good job of recapitulating information that is valid, but it is not the attending of the school that makes it valid.
 
I have been through some pretty hefty training. When that fellow came at me with the bayonet, it saved my life. When people were shooting at me from behind vehicles, I knew how to respond. When people invaded my house and laid iin wait for me, I learned that I needed to learn a BUNCH more.

I used to help people set up homes and businesses for interior defense. I always learned as much as I taught. Every person is different, every building is different, every primary threat is different. Some learn by posting what they think and then weeding through the responses. :cool: Others just post what they think as fact. :banghead: If you are one of the weeders in this garden, you might learn how to stay alive in a dicey situation.

Those are the thoughts and philosophies of Ol' Pops and are worth about what you paid for them. :neener:

Pops
 
Gentleman and Ladies,

I appreciate all of your thoughts and comments.

For those of you who have chosen to ignore the fact that I value experience go back and re-read my original post. I stated that I value experience. To expound upon that: There is no substitute for real life experience. I think you all are reading too much into the original sentence.

If you have not had any training and/or experience then you are not an expert
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If you will carefully read the sentence I am stating that I value training and or experience. In no part of that sentence do I equate training with expertise. I value experience more, but I value training at all levels, both good and questionable. One can learn from almost everyone, even the rank novice. I do believe that you can become proficient thought experience, you can be self taught.

The thing is that you don't have to be an expert to have good information.
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That is true.

DunedinDragon,

I do believe that you can learn effective without classes. There are individuals who are better at self teaching than others. I am have read books from almost every major (and a lot of minor) firearms instructors. In my profession I read current literature and must learn new techniques and new science on my own. Classes help further my own acquired knowledge.

That is true of life, just because you are good at what you do, and are self taught, don’t ignore the fact that you can still benefit from the experience and training of others.

Mr. Miculek is largely self taught, yet he is arguable the greatest revolver shooter in the world. An excellent overall shooter and a great teacher. He is still a student of shooting.

There are few things I consider myself an expert on. I have had handgun, shotgun, and rifle shooting classes. I have taken defensive handgun courses, night shooting courses, concealed carry course from some excellent self-defense and shooting experts. I have no practical experience, which IMHO means I am not an expert.

I am an expert on the care of the acutely ill. That may be arrogant, but I have been a nurse for over 14 years. I have more qualifications than I am interested in trying to write down. I am currently working on my Master’s Nurse Practitioner in acute care. I am truly comfortable in that role. I still learn on a daily basis, if the learning process stops then, in my profession, you can become a danger to others.

I am here to learn.

There are a lot of people on this board who’s opinion I highly respect. I am not going to name names, because I would forget someone important. I lean a lot. I appreciate the experience and diversity on this board.

There are others who, for the most part, who may produce a lot of post, but most of it is of questionable value.

I try to post things I have some knowledge of, some level of training, or some experience, and I try to be well informed through books and literature on a variety of topics. I hope I produce quality post that are appreciated. I generally do acknowledge the fact that I am not an expert, I do recommend courses and instructors I respect. I do recommend training.

I appreciate your thoughtful opinions and time. I look forward to reading your post on other topics.

I would not post on this board if I did not believe in the overall quality of the people and information here.

Charles
 
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