Experts on THR

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444

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Note that the word expert is not in quotation marks.
Everyone is an expert on something. For most of us, or expertise is limited to subjects like our own lives or the interior of our home or something like that. However, there are actual bonafide gun experts. People who are internationally acknowledged to be experts in some facet of firearms. Amazingly, we have had at least a couple of them grace the pages of TFL. Each time (that I am aware of), some jerk or jerks decided that it would be amusing to them to pull the guy's chain.
What a shame.
Then after the fact they make comments like they have a right to express their opinions or this guy isn't some kind of god or whatever. In reality, you did two things. #1 You proved to anyone in doubt how ignorant you are. #2 you either drove away or soured someone on this board. Someone who knows more about that subject than everyone else on here combined. I get on here to discuss guns and learn about guns. I would love it if the true experts answered my questions and give me advice, but I don't think it is ever going to happen.

There is a thread currently running on the board where a bunch of people wildly speculate, others make posts about what they wish was reality rather than what is reality when lo and behold a true expert arrived on-scene. He is probably one of a few hundred people in the world that know the true story of what is being discussed. After getting a few smart a**ed remarks thrown at him, he moved on to more productive things. I saw the same thing happen to the same guy on a different board. A more specialized board than this where he is a true expert on the subject that the whole board is based on. I have no idea what would attract a serious operator, shooter, trainer, or whatever to a board like this. They attempt to lay it all out for you and end all the speculations and questions and most people don't want to listen - they only want to talk. Their mouth is open and their ears our closed. All to our collective loss.

Moral to the story: Before you post, consider the possibility that the person you are discussing the subject with might really know what he is talking about. Or, before you send that nasty post, consider that you might be driving away someone that you can learn far more from than 1000 other members of this board. Someone who has vast experience, real life experience ..............................................
 
Good post, 444. I, too, have seen some valuable "resources" run off other boards by petty criticisms and attacks. I view it as a personal loss when that happens because there are so many areas in which my knowledge is very limited (not just firearms, either!).

R-Tex
 
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I guess I'll be the smart a** on this one...:eek:

I love to read the advice of "experts". But we must first define what an expert is, though. Does being published in the gunrags make one an expert? Does having a website devoted to the subject and having a gazillion hits on it make one an expert? Nope. At best, being published or doing extensive research on a subject, or even having experience at a particular job, makes one more knowledgable in general but it does not necessarily make one an "expert". Take all of the research done by Marshall & Sanow, for instance. Some hold them to be experts, some to be incompetents, while some hold them to be total fakes.

A forum is, by definition, a place for discussion. Please read the Rules of Conduct for this forum: http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

I think that everyone should be able to have a say. NO ONE is the "end-all" guru on any subject. Discussion is what this board is about.

They attempt to lay it all out for you and end all the speculations and questions.
Click to expand...

"End all the speculations and questions" makes this sound like another board that deals with firearms and such but that is actually the private realm of just a few moderators. They actually spell out in their "rules of conduct" that you are not there to discuss things but to listen to the true professionals...these professionals being anyone with whom the board owner and moderators agree with. I would not want THR to become the petty dictatorship that I have seen on that board.

Discussion, my friends, is how knowledge is shared and how it grows. If an "expert" does nothing but preach what he knows to "end all the speculations and questions", then you are getting nothing more than what he (or she, to be PC) knows. This may be a lot or may be a little, may be correct, may not be. Anyway, knowledge of any sort needs to be questioned. It needs to be discussed. There is no growth without it.

I'll put this thought forward: If an expert truly knows everything that there is to know about his field, then questions shouldn't bother him. He should be able to lay to rest speculation and should be able to confidently answer anything put before him.

Sorry to come out somewhat negatively but I feel very strongly that this should be a board for freely discussing topics, not merely reading what an "expert" has to say. Sometimes it's a little messy since you have to sift through a lot of different responses but, to paraphrase Dick Cheney (IIRC), democracy is sometimes messy and that's the price we pay for it.

I, for one, wouldn't have it any other way.:)
 
"NO ONE is the "end-all" guru on any subject."

Harold, let me ask you this: How many people in the world know exactly how much money is in your wallet ? How many people in the world know what tires you have on your car ?
There are questions just like that on this board. Questions where someone knows the exact, correct answer. An answer that isn't widely known. An answer that doesn't take some kind of genius level of intelligance, but you have to be involved in the project to know. And, a guy that is involved comes on here and answers the question and all he gets is grief for it.
Let's say someone comes on here and asks, what is the standard issue duty sidearm for Podunk South Dakota PD ? A few guys say, well I think it is X. A few more say, they should be using a Glock. More people get on and say they are stupid if they arn't using a 1911. A couple more people say they once drove through there years ago and it looked like they were carrying Y. Eventually a guy gets on there and says, I currently work full time for Podunk PD and this is what we carry ________. Period. End of story. He is an expert on the subject. Take his word for it. Don't hassle him about having your right to wildly speculate; he answered the question, The End.
Let's say you become interested in shooting IPSC and post a question on this board. You get a few replies and then a new member makes a post: Rob Leatham. If there ever was an expert on IPSC shooting, it is Robbie. He has the credentials to back it up. He is well known. He has proven himself many times over. But I am sure we have guys on here that would argue with him. And if he left digusted, they would rejoice because they got their right to speak never thinking for a moment what a great resource they cost the rest of us. (This is just an example, I have never seen Rob Leatham on this board).
 
Rob Leatheam is a good role model and his credentials as an expert in the field of IPSC Shooting are verifiable and proven.

At the sametime, several other "experts" who are in this industry are, well, less then honest. Many have flat out lied about their backgrounds, training, and experience. When questioned or challenged, its always some "troll" or other put down toward the person doing the questioning. Then, a numerous "lapdogs," jump on the questioner, in defense of the "expert."

Therefore, if your going to have people, for a lack of better terms, "bow down" to these said "experts," I suggest some form of "vetting process" be allowed into the mix. Make these experts prove, beyond doubt, their own personal backgrounds and experience. I realize, however, this would be difficult if not impossible to do.

Then, I believe (for sure me), I would be more open to listening to what they have to say. However, when someome of "questionable" experience and/or background opens their mouth, I immediately am skeptical to what they have to say.

As you said 444, there are NUMEROUS experts on this board. Men and women with thousands of hours of training, strong military backgrounds, and numerous real life shootings under their belts. However, they don't, for whatever the reasons, teach, publish articles, write books, etc. So their opinion is just as good, if not better, then some of the other "experts" who are good at self promotion.
 
444, I am in agreement with you in the examples that you have given, for the most part.

I'm not sure that you see what I'm getting at, though. Let's go to the old caliber debates, for example. Let's say that Fackler gets on the board and starts telling his views on the subject of stopping power. To some, Fackler is "the Man" when it comes to the final say on stopping power. To others, he isn't. An expert? Yes...and no. To say that he is absolutely right is a bit much, considering the subject material. To say that he is wrong is also incorrect. He has much of substance to say but it's something that must be examined. We must separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Your example of the PD and weapons usage is really not something that can be argued. If a member of that department says that they use gun "A", then it must be so.

Your example of Leatham is a good one but even his information might be questioned. What if Leatham gets out of "the game" for a while? His information is dated. To my knowledge, Leatham has never been in a real-world gunfight, so is he an expert on the use of the handgun in a deadly force situation? Well, yes and no. He is, without a doubt, an expert on the skills necessary in a gunfight but what about mindset? Probably, but that's subject to debate.

I have a friend who killed a guy a couple of years ago in the line of duty. He is no handgun expert, though he has beyond the standard training of a LEO. He isn't much of a thinker, though he's not stupid. Not that educated, either. He can really make no claim to being an expert at gunfighting or post-traumatic stress though he has been in a gunfight and has suffered (greatly) from killing the guy (who, incidentally, deserved it, IMHO). I greatly value the knowledge that I've obtained from him, even though I don't consider him an expert at all. There are plenty of people who know more and can do more than he can because of their extensive training but they don't have the same perspective.

<sigh>

Anyway, a fact is a fact but most things are debatable. I would hate to see this board and it's moderators start banning people or deleting posts of people who merely voice their opinion even when, perhaps, they should have stayed quiet.

Again, this board is a wonderful place to discuss things. There are plenty of intelligent and/or experienced people here who, nevertheless, hold varying points of view. I have taken quite a bit from debates here as well as on TFL that I value. Other boards, where free speech is not encouraged, have held less of value to me.
 
It always amuses me to see some 15 year-old with a goofy handle trying to correct Pat Rogers on CQB tactics or tell Will Fennell what the score is on knives. I once had some knob try to tell me how things really worked at an FFL. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'd been selling guns since he was six. :rolleyes:
 
Please allow me to put this another way.
And please allow me a disclaimer: I am guilty of what I am talking about. I don't practice what I preach all the time, but I usually try. This post is something I think I need to do as much as anyone.

Let's just try to get along. Let's try to keep things civil and have constructive conversations. Let's not argue points where we don't have the facts to back them up. Let's realize that some people have more experience than we do. Let's recognize that some people are experts in certain areas and just because you don't recognize the name, don't make assumptions. If you disagree with someone, refute their post with facts, don't attack them personally. Don't take other people's posts personally.

Maybe where I went wrong was in my use of the word, expert. In many cases I do mean expert in every sense of the word. In other cases I mean someone that knows something for a fact and says so, making them an expert on this one little item. Unless you know for a fact that they are wrong, or if what they are saying is obviously speculation, or if their experiences are directly opposite of yours, why argue with them about it ? They very well might know. If you doubt it, research the matter before you jump in with both feet and make a fool of yourself.
None of this is saying that we shouldn't question people, or ask for references. But do it nicely. Don't drive people away in disgust.
 
444 - I think a lot of us understand what you're trying to say. I, for one, agree with you also. However, at times it's worth it to read some of the comebacks or words of wisdom from those who do question the wisdom of those who've BTDT. Worth it, that is, for a little levity. To use one of Tamara's examples, I recall getting a very good laugh when someone, doesn't matter who at this point, was trying to tell Pat Rogers he was all wet. I think I also recall someone trying to tell Gale McMillan how to clean a rifle barrel.
 
Thx 444, your post is well accepted by me ... and hopefully I rarely if ever am guilty of what you refer to. But I do see it and sometimes cringe. I do admit tho to a certain bent toward ''humor injection'' at times.:p

I would hope that - for the most part .. our ''experts'' are probably old enough to, like me ..... be pretty thick skinned and so able to shrug off a limited amount of ''trouble''. There is a limit tho and it certainly is a shame if good minds quit thru frustration and anger at the inconsiderate and occasionally downright rude reposts they suffer..

Maybe ''expert'' per se is not best word ... perhaps just call these people to whom you refer as ''the experienced ones'' ..... experience is not by default ''pure knowledge'' .... because even those with experience can be under misapprehension at times... but to me it sure counts for a great deal. I am always eager to learn ... and this place offers that ... an ''information exchange'' BBS.

The long and short tho is .. discussion, and .. keyword being ''CIVIL'' .... so, a right for anyone to question another's input ... for sure ..... but in a civil and respectful manner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me close this post with a smidgeon of humor ..... the definition I like best of an ''expert''.


''An expert is someone who - learns more and more, about less and less - until he knows everything about nothing'' :D
 
I'm not arguing at all...merely stating my views.

The referenced persons are pretty well no-BS people. Pat Rogers is very good about claiming ignorance when he doesn't know or putting qualifiers on things when he is speculating. I don't really follow Fennell's posts much, so I can't comment. Gale McMillan being told how to clean a rifle barrel? That's a funny one. I didn't read it, so I don't know how it went, but there ARE many ways to do the job and different barrel makers have different ideas on how to do it most effectively, so the poster may have had a valid point...but, again, I didn't read the post(s).

That's what I'm saying, though. There isn't necessarily just one right way to do something, even when an "expert" claims that there is. Without the free exchange of ideas, you're not going to get to the next level. Sometimes "stupid" questions...aren't. Sometimes they can spark something.

Anyway...I think I've stated what I meant to state, though it's taken more posts that I desired.:D
 
The problem is that some of the people I am referring to are genuine experts.
Pat Rogers has been mentioned several times and is a good example. And, he has actually been on this board.
 
It usually seems that those most enamoured with the title of "Expert" are those who don't qualify.

I guess it's only human nature for many to try and impune the "experts".
It's sort of like playing "Stump the Band".
 
I know an "Expert" at racing engines. Probably as experienced and as knowledgeable as anyone in the world....truly. Yet, he's often quick to say he's still learning, and still amazed at how much he's yet to discover about his craft. I admire that.

When I lose respect for an "expert" is when they hold their own BS to a doctrine, as if their experience or knowledge is infallable....and I've seen that on this board.

I respect a person's knowledge, their experience, or even their wisdom on a subject - so long as they're willing to accept they are not the final word on a subject.
 
Civility for the most part still resides here. There are disagreements, but rarely gets past that stage. The internet is a curtain you can hide behind. You are free to say just about anything you wish and pose as any person in the world. With very little research you can pretend to be just about anybody and mimick their printed words or deeds. It can be carefully typed out with time to edit anything not appropiate to the subject. So how do someone fully know that Mr. So and So is the real Mr. So and So unless you personally know the real person and the poster can't correctly answer questions that only you and the real person would know? Then assume you know for sure who the poster is, who's to really believe you if you then vouch for that person? It's a random circle and only questions can solve the mystery. That is the problem with having conversations without faces seen. Who's to know who's who and who's comments you accept or decline? Everyone has the right to find out for themselves. You just don't go blindly down the path soley on the word of someone you are not sure of.
If a person truly is knowledgable of a subject then I think they won't mind being put to the test as they can answer the questions with facts.
I think the word expert shouldn't be applied to anyone, as there's always room for growth. Alot of the growth comes from thoughts and work of other people. You should learn something everyday of your life.
Alot of people believe only the great one from up above is the only one with the final say. Man may say anything depending on where his/her heart is.
 
FWIW...

I used to write the ourdoor column for a local newspaper. I'd go to some of the local shows and it was amazing. I'd become an "expert" by sitting behind a keyboard and whipping out a few articles. Oops...had to wear the credentals badge too.

That happens to people here too. Some sit behind the keyboard and become instant experts. "Best gun for bears in Alaska" comes to mind.

Also, we are a product of our environment and experiences. If you asked a kid in central Mexico what the weather is typically like, his answer would be a lot different than an Eskimo kid. Which is right??? They both are.

There are topics like "best bullet for self defense in _____ caliber". Since few if anyone here has used a handgun for SD, who's qualified to answer?? There's Cirillo(sp?) that's been in something like 17 gunfights and shot a number of BG's. I'd qualify him as an experienced expert, but half the guys he talks to probably argue with him. They read about a gunfight once so that makes them just as "qualified"

And, sometimes you have to make educated assumptions. I've never shot a person and never will....but I've killed maybe 30-40 deer in my life. I have some real world experience there so I try to apply that as possible.

And, in the end, I think the BS'ers get called out pretty quick. Personally, I greatly enjoy all the input. If you notice, the biggest heated debates are typically on topics that people have little or no experience.

And remember, this is about guns. It isn't life and death...

it's far more important than that ;)
 
If anyone has ever spent any time in a gun store then there is always someone who will argue a point, or most anywhere for that matter.

Whether right or wrong there are people who believe they are right no matter what is said.
It also has to be understood that some experts have an ego or attitude far above those of mortal men. It is reflected in some of the posts.

I have met some so-called experts in various fields who would dismiss you as a human being in a second.

When one asks a question or remarks with a comment, they can be put down by the experts.

Someone who is secure in their own knowlege of a subject will not be offended by some person making a stupid or wrong point.

Wearing your feelings on your shirt sleeve in a public forum is not gonna work.

There are also those who push others buttons just to push them. Its easy to pick em out.

If the crap factor was banned from posts then this would be a lonely place.

An intelligent person will listen to all the facts, right or wrong and form their own opinion.
 
444: Good post – glad you brought it up!

Yes, “expert†may be defined in a number of ways. My favorite was one on a sign that I had in my office of many years ago, in an engineering department where I had earned the dubious reputation for being an expert. It read,

This Expert Knows The Answer 5% Of The Time - The Rest Of The Time He Just Knows Where To Get It.

You see, I had learned the use of these valuable words: "I don't know, but I'll find out." Also, I always preceded my answers with, "In my experience..." or "According to ...". That way, those with whom I was speaking knew the source of the information I was providing.

Along the same lines - -
Many times I have started a topic asking what experience someone has had with a very specific subject. Frequently, there have been many respondents that start their reply by saying,
“I don’t have any experience with that, but one time…â€
or
“I don’t know about that, but I had a friend who…â€
or something similar, and then proceed to give their already self-unqualified opinion. And these usually are the first to reply. These people evidently had never heard of the old saying,

It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool of, than to speak up and remove all doubt.

Alex
 
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