Explain a Gun Purchasing Issue To Me

[sisyphus]

The guns I've bought from elsewhere were purchased from an FFL and sent to my FFL.

Gunbroker kind of muddies the water. Say I find a gun I really want on gb. The guy has good feedback so I trust to buy from him. He is just a guy like me and not an FFL. How does that work? Does he ship to my FFL, or does he have to have his FFL ship to my FFL? What is legal and what isn't? Thanks for clearing this up for me.

 

[wiscoaster]

He ships to your FFL, providing your FFL takes transfers from non-licensed individuals. It's legal, but it's their discretion, so you'll have to check with them first. The usual procedure is for the sender to include a copy of their state residence ID or driver's license.

 

[sisyphus]

Thank you! I'm picking up a rifle at my FFL in the morning so I can ask them if they're ok with that.

 

[George P]

You will send a copy of your FFL with your payment to the seller and he in turn ships a copy of his ID to your FFL.

 

[Scott.M]

You will send a copy of your FFL with your payment to the seller and he in turn ships a copy of his ID to your FFL.

Not needed, nor required and sending a copy of an FFL to a non-FFL is frowned upon.

 

[wiscoaster]

Not needed, nor required and sending a copy of an FFL to a non-FFL is frowned upon.

This is correct, as I understand the procedure, but maybe it's one of those things that depends on the FFL rather than the law. I've been sent a copy of a seller's FFL license on one or two occasions ... I don't know if it was unintentional or not. And I'm not sure I understand why it's so frowned upon as an FFL license is a matter of public record and you can find it on the internet.

 

[Scott.M]

This is correct, as I understand the procedure, but maybe it's one of those things that depends on the FFL rather than the law. I've been sent a copy of a seller's FFL license on one or two occasions ... I don't know if it was unintentional or not. And I'm not sure I understand why it's so frowned upon as an FFL license is a matter of public record and you can find it on the internet.

I understand it happens often but there are zero legal requirements for me to ask for/receive a copy of an FFL to ship a gun. No DL sent requirement either. Just lots of low IQ FFL holders making up the rules/laws as they go.

 

[Spats McGee]

The guns I've bought from elsewhere were purchased from an FFL and sent to my FFL.

Gunbroker kind of muddies the water. Say I find a gun I really want on gb. The guy has good feedback so I trust to buy from him. He is just a guy like me and not an FFL. How does that work? Does he ship to my FFL, or does he have to have his FFL ship to my FFL? What is legal and what isn't? Thanks for clearing this up for me.

Treat Gunbroker like the classified ads. If the seller is in-state, you'll just look to state law for the transfer rules. If the seller is out-of-state, federal law applies and the transfer has to go through an FFL. I'm assuming that he's out of state, and that you want the gun sent to someone near you. Call your FFL and ask if they'll accept a shipment from a non-FFL. The FFLs in my area typically will not. If that's the case, he'll need to go to his FFL and have the FFL ship it to your FFL. Then you'll go make the transfer at your FFL.

 

[AlexanderA]

Call your FFL and ask if they'll accept a shipment from a non-FFL. The FFLs in my area typically will not.

With good reason. Looking at it from the point of view of the FFL, what happens when he receives a gun from a non-FFL, and then for some reason has to return it? He can't ship interstate to a non-FFL. So the deal becomes complicated. It's better to avoid a situation like that in the first place.

 

[wiscoaster]

It's better to avoid a situation like that in the first place.

Yes, well, that equates to turning away business, now and perhaps for the future from the same customer. So there's more involved. FFL's may be so busy now they can afford to turn away business they don't want the complications of dealing with, but it's a very cyclic business, and that's not always the case.

 

[George P]

With good reason. Looking at it from the point of view of the FFL, what happens when he receives a gun from a non-FFL, and then for some reason has to return it? He can't ship interstate to a non-FFL. So the deal becomes complicated. It's better to avoid a situation like that in the first place.

Not really, he simply ships it back to the shipper's FFL if the shipper wants it back

 

[Frank Ettin]

I understand it happens often but there are zero legal requirements for me to ask for/receive a copy of an FFL to ship a gun....

Except if the gun is being shipped across state lines federal law requires that it be shipped to an FFL (18 USC 922(a)(3) and 18 USC 922(a)(5)). So someone shipping the gun would be well advised to assure that the person he is shipping it to has a current FFL in good standing. If the shipper doesn't have a copy of the license, he can check the ATF on-line list of FFLs.

....Just lots of low IQ FFL holders making up the rules/laws as they go.

Except FFLs, like any business, are free to set their own business practices.

 

[dogtown tom]

Not needed, nor required and sending a copy of an FFL to a non-FFL is frowned upon.

By who? No ATF regulation prohibits, discourages or frowns on a dealer providing a copy of his FFL to anyone. It's perfectly legal.
There is no requirement for a nonlicensee to have a copy of the receiving dealers FFL before shipping a firearm to that dealer. If he wants to verify that the dealer is bonafide, then all the shipper needs is the first three and last five digits of the dealers FFL number. The shipper can then verify that FFL and the dealers address through ATF eZcheck: https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezcheck/

 

[AlexanderA]

Not really, he simply ships it back to the shipper's FFL if the shipper wants it back

We're talking about a situation where the shipper (a non-FFL seller of a gun) is not working with an FFL on his end. So, the receiving FFL would have to contact the seller, the seller would have to contact an FFL on his end, and that FFL would have to contact the receiving FFL. Lots of places where this could hit snags.

Stepping back a bit, the seller is not likely to be the one to void the sale. That would probably be the dissatisfied buyer. So what do you do when the seller doesn't want to cooperate and go through all the steps outlined above? The receiving FFL is left holding the bag. This is exactly why FFL's don't want to receive shipments from unlicensed individuals.

 

[dogtown tom]

I understand it happens often but there are zero legal requirements for me to ask for/receive a copy of an FFL to ship a gun.

And zero legal requirements prohibiting a dealer from emailing his FFL to every shipper or even putting it on his website for anyone in the world to see.

No DL sent requirement either.

True, no federal law or ATF regulation requires a copy of the shippers drivers license. BUT.....it IS required that the receiving dealer record the name and address of the person from whom they received the firearm. This is easily done by asking for a copy of the shippers DL. Them's MY rules, if you don't like 'em don't ship me that gun.

Just lots of low IQ FFL holders making up the rules/laws as they go.

Low IQ is thinking that a dealers business policy is the same as making up the rules/laws as they go.

 

[dogtown tom]

We're talking about a situation where the shipper (a non-FFL seller of a gun) is not working with an FFL on his end. So, the receiving FFL would have to contact the seller, the seller would have to contact an FFL on his end, and that FFL would have to contact the receiving FFL. Lots of places where this could hit snags.

Stepping back a bit, the seller is not likely to be the one to void the sale. That would probably be the dissatisfied buyer. So what do you do when the seller doesn't want to cooperate and go through all the steps outlined above? The receiving FFL is left holding the bag. This is exactly why FFL's don't want to receive shipments from unlicensed individuals.

I've gladly received guns from nonlicensees over the last twelve years......but maybe not much longer.
-An ever increasing number of "mystery guns", ie guns that arrive with no sellers ID and no buyer info. So it sits taking up space until someone calls and complains about me not calling to tell them I have their gun. "UPS Store # 2345" is not acceptable name and address of the shipper...so guess what happens until that DL gets emailed to me.

-Packaging, sadly, but in the last five years the number of guns shipped wrapped in Sundays sports section and no bubble wrap in a box thats been reused three times is increasing. Buyers deserve to get the gun they bought in the condition as sold. When a rifle arrives with the muzzle sticking outside the box thats not UPS/FedEx/USPS's fault....its the careless seller not packaging properly. Some FFL's (usually pawnshops) do it too, but 80% of the idiot shippers are nonlicensees.

 

[Scott.M]

Except if the gun is being shipped across state lines federal law requires that it be shipped to an FFL (18 USC 922(a)(3) and 18 USC 922(a)(5)). So someone shipping the gun would be well advised to assure that the person he is shipping it to has a current FFL in good standing. If the shipper doesn't have a copy of the license, he can check the ATF on-line list of FFLs.

Except FFLs, like any business, are free to set their own business practices.

I never said it didn't have to go to an FFL, just saying you don't need a copy of said FFL to send it.

 

[Scott.M]

And zero legal requirements prohibiting a dealer from emailing his FFL to every shipper or even putting it on his website for anyone in the world to see.



True, no federal law or ATF regulation requires a copy of the shippers drivers license. BUT.....it IS required that the receiving dealer record the name and address of the person from whom they received the firearm. This is easily done by asking for a copy of the shippers DL. Them's MY rules, if you don't like 'em don't ship me that gun.



Low IQ is thinking that a dealers business policy is the same as making up the rules/laws as they go.

Sure, your business, you decide what you want to do. I'm just not a fan of creating more hoops for people to jump through to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

Congrats on being tougher on law abiding citizens then you need to be.

 

[CapnMac]

simply ships it back to the shipper's FFL

Presumption from above is that the shipper did not use an in-state FFL, but sent direct to the receiver's FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sure, your business, you decide what you want to do. I'm just not a fan of creating more hoops for people to jump through to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

Congrats on being tougher on law abiding citizens then you need to be.

Really "hoops"?
Since ATF says I have to record the name and address of the shipper, I'm sure you have a more secure, reliable method of doing that? No, you don't. You think that scribbling "Scott M." on the corner of the box with some random address is just okey dokey. The sellers DL is an accepted form of ID for many purposes, writing a check, voting, picking up mail and thousands of other commercial transactions. Do you also pitch a fit and cry "You creating more hoops for me! It's too tough!".......no you don't. A copy of the shippers DL offers a small sense that the name and address are authentic and not a name and address picked at random.

Yeah, I'm being tough. If its too tough to take a cell phone pic of your DL you likely find life pretty difficult anyway.

If you don't like FFL's business policies I suggest you get your own FFL then proudly advertise "I'm not a low IQ FFL!!!"

 

[George P]

Presumption from above is that the shipper did not use an in-state FFL, but sent direct to the receiver's FFL.

But, to get it back, he needs to find a local FFL; that's the easy part; accepting whatever their fee might be can be difficult to swallow in some areas.

 

[bearcreek]

With good reason. Looking at it from the point of view of the FFL, what happens when he receives a gun from a non-FFL, and then for some reason has to return it? He can't ship interstate to a non-FFL. So the deal becomes complicated. It's better to avoid a situation like that in the first place.

Why would that ever occur though? Unless the seller offered a money back guarantee, which is a terrible idea in a private sale, I can't think of a reason the FFL would need to return it.

 

[wiscoaster]

... I can't think of a reason the FFL would need to return it.

1) If the gun had been misrepresented by the seller.

In that case, the buyer would postpone the transfer until the seller had been contacted and the FFL would just hang on to the purchased item. Hopefully the seller would agree to some adjustment that would make return unnecessary. But these things DO happen. Sometimes in error, sometimes intentionally. Sellers guilty of the latter don't last long on Gunbroker, though.

 

[George P]

Many reputable sellers also offer a 3 day non-firing inspection period where the gun can be returned (minus shipping costs)

 

[bearcreek]

1) If the gun had been misrepresented by the seller.

In that case, the buyer would postpone the transfer until the seller had been contacted and the FFL would just hang on to the purchased item. Hopefully the seller would agree to some adjustment that would make return unnecessary. But these things DO happen. Sometimes in error, sometimes intentionally. Sellers guilty of the latter don't last long on Gunbroker, though.

I was thinking specifically of a non FFL, private individual. Unless the person was just really nice or something, I can't imagine a seller taking a gun back once it's sold. Why would they? I've never bought or sold anything on Gunbroker. Does the money not change hands before the gun is shipped? Whenever I sell anything online, guns included, the item doesn't ship until I have the money in the clear.