1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Nah. It's been covered 3-4 times since the thread started.
Explain the .380 trend...
- Thread starter sokygunner
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Nah. It's been covered 3-4 times since the thread started.
kansas coyote
Member
AS I have heard said its a palm sized gun that will make pata out of a liver .
HardShell
Member
It goes a bit beyond that even, IMHO.
The KTs have been produced, owned, and discussed at length -- through multiple generational upgrades/improvements. Many people who carry them daily have owned more than one and most handgun enthusiasts have at least held, if not fired, one.
The Rohrbaugh is still relatively new and has been produced in markedly fewer numbers. I'm a certified "gun nut" and I've only held two of them, and have yet to shoot one.
I have no qualms about dropping $1k for a gun, especially one I might stake my life on one day (even if it would be relegated to BUG duty)... but even with a ridiculous amount of money tied up in firearms, I am hesitant to spend that much on a gun I've never even shot once. YMMV.
Hopefully, I will come across a used one that I can try out before I buy or one of my shooting buddies will get one I can test drive. Until then, the KT is a great compromise of tiny size/weight and adequate (if barely) power in a BUG and it is with me ALWAYS, even when my primary isn't on my hip. (I am on my second one, and it has been completely reliable since break-in without any F&B at all.)
JMHO.
Because the PF9 isn't nearly as "pocketable" as the LCP and the 9mm Kahrs are a gamble when it comes to reliability. The LCP is a true, reliable pocket pistol priced at an affordable $300. My LCP is 100% reliable, whereas my Kahr pm9 couldn't fire a 6 round magazine without a failure. The LCP is less than half the price of the pm9, is smaller and lighter than a PF9 and pm9, and still shoots the same diameter projectile (although not as heavy or fast-moving as 9mm). Would I rather have a 9mm on me? Of course. Is it possible to always have a 9mm on me? Nope. That's why people want these little .380s...for the same reasons I do.
Hardshell,
I think your right that the relative scarcity of the R9 is certainly a major factor in why they are not more common. You can find LCPs, P3tas, etc in shops all over. I have never seen a Rohrbaugh for sale in a shop. Most casual gun purchasers are likely unaware of its existence.
When I was working in sales putting myself through college one of the things I learned was people buy what you sell them. If one product is consistently being pushed over another it will sell better. As you eluded to, things that people could see and touch sold much better than what was in the catalog.
Most shops have j frame revolvers, and the PM9 is not that rare. I think price and an even smaller size, but mostly price is the proximate factor there.
I think your right that the relative scarcity of the R9 is certainly a major factor in why they are not more common. You can find LCPs, P3tas, etc in shops all over. I have never seen a Rohrbaugh for sale in a shop. Most casual gun purchasers are likely unaware of its existence.
When I was working in sales putting myself through college one of the things I learned was people buy what you sell them. If one product is consistently being pushed over another it will sell better. As you eluded to, things that people could see and touch sold much better than what was in the catalog.
Most shops have j frame revolvers, and the PM9 is not that rare. I think price and an even smaller size, but mostly price is the proximate factor there.
well if there was a 1911 craze, they probably decided "Man this this is like a brick" and then shelved their fancy 1911 and grabbed something that actually fit their lifestyle better.
just a thought. But yes, the draw to a 380 is, "I can just throw it in my pocket".
just a thought. But yes, the draw to a 380 is, "I can just throw it in my pocket".
I'm sure all the experts know that their precious 9mm, .40 or .45 is merely an underpowered substitute for the long gun that a "real man" would carry. Open carry of a loaded rifle or shotgun is perfectly legal in Texas. Of course I have yet to witness anyone walking downtown with a rifle slung over their shoulder for protection. Perhaps convenience is a real issue after all.
And yes - I own and love my .45 but it doesn't hang on my belt with a covering garmet when both the temperature and humidity are over 95.
Chance I will need a gun - small
Chance I would need to fire it - smaller
Chance an attacker will continue to press the attack - even smaller
Chance that attacker will laugh at my .380 and demand to be shot with a .45 - virtually zero.
And yes - I own and love my .45 but it doesn't hang on my belt with a covering garmet when both the temperature and humidity are over 95.
Chance I will need a gun - small
Chance I would need to fire it - smaller
Chance an attacker will continue to press the attack - even smaller
Chance that attacker will laugh at my .380 and demand to be shot with a .45 - virtually zero.
Why is the 380 so popular all of a sudden?
I believe that it is a perfect storm of all of the things you mentioned in your original post.
1) Manufacturerers started producing new smaller, lighter guns to fill a percieved niche for a true "Pocket Pistol". Lets face it, many of the older designs were oversized for a pretty anemic cartridge.
2) In light of the new guns available, and with their popularity increasing demand for better choices in ammo, manufactures started turning out better ammo.
3) With the development of smaller lighter 380s like the NAA, LCP and the Kel-tec and better performing ammo, many aficianados needed to have one or two.
4) The fourth and last part of this equation is, of course, the political climate. With Obama in the white house, and the radical left in charge of the house and Senate, people who have never owned a gun before have been buying them in droves. Many of these newbies want something that doesn't kick a lot and is easy to carry. What they don't relize of course is that small guns are not a good choice for beginners.
I would like to adress a couple of your other points as well. While I have never seen a Rorbaugh, none of the other so called pocket nines come close in the concealability department, to an LCP or Kel-Tec. Even a 5 shot chiefs special is huge compared to the 7 shot 380's already mentioned. I have owned a model 36 for the past twenty years and have never been able to carry it in a pants pocket. My LCP is with me everyday from sunup to sundown in my left front pocket. Are bigger guns better? Absolutely! That is why my Glock 23 is most always on my right hip.
I believe that it is a perfect storm of all of the things you mentioned in your original post.
1) Manufacturerers started producing new smaller, lighter guns to fill a percieved niche for a true "Pocket Pistol". Lets face it, many of the older designs were oversized for a pretty anemic cartridge.
2) In light of the new guns available, and with their popularity increasing demand for better choices in ammo, manufactures started turning out better ammo.
3) With the development of smaller lighter 380s like the NAA, LCP and the Kel-tec and better performing ammo, many aficianados needed to have one or two.
4) The fourth and last part of this equation is, of course, the political climate. With Obama in the white house, and the radical left in charge of the house and Senate, people who have never owned a gun before have been buying them in droves. Many of these newbies want something that doesn't kick a lot and is easy to carry. What they don't relize of course is that small guns are not a good choice for beginners.
I would like to adress a couple of your other points as well. While I have never seen a Rorbaugh, none of the other so called pocket nines come close in the concealability department, to an LCP or Kel-Tec. Even a 5 shot chiefs special is huge compared to the 7 shot 380's already mentioned. I have owned a model 36 for the past twenty years and have never been able to carry it in a pants pocket. My LCP is with me everyday from sunup to sundown in my left front pocket. Are bigger guns better? Absolutely! That is why my Glock 23 is most always on my right hip.
Waldo Pepper
Member
Here it is 16th of Aug and still haven't fired the little Llama MicroMax yet due to lack of ammo. So some winchester silver tip for $35 a 50 box. Needless to say I passed 40 cents a pop is bad enough, but I am not spending 70 cents a pop to test fire and familiarize with anytime soon.
Have to agree that .380's have really picked up people's interest lately. Even my brother who scoffs at the .380 has been severely tempted to pick up the new Kahr 380 as well as the Walther PK 380. They're just so small and handy and aren't at all too mousey like a .22 or even a .32.
Apple a Day
Member
Simple, they stopped importing Makarovs. 
PX15
Member
JMOfartO:
Small size, therefore ease of concealment is one reason why I carry a 380 cal. pistol.
Jesse
Small size, therefore ease of concealment is one reason why I carry a 380 cal. pistol.
Jesse
The older I get the more hilarious threads and or magazine articles like this get .
The answer to the Ops question is simple common sense while we have all heard the stories " and I'm sure many are 100% fact" of Bad guys or soldiers getting shot with major calibers and living long enough to go on to do amazing feats when it comes to a self defense piece the question becomes simply this .
How many criminals really want to get shot with any caliber when they could run away and live to try to victimize some1 else another day ?
A 380 , 32 acp and even the lowly 22 rimfire ain't gonna feel good when it hits them and the dirtbags know that and they also know it just might kill them . Do you think they think far enough ahead and take comfort in the fact that they may indeed slit your throat before they Bleed out from the wound of that "Lowly 380" ?
Think of it this way it's kinda like a having couple of 20 LB ankle biters for dogs in your house for protection . Now we all know they wont impress the would be burglars as much as a pair of 120+ LB German Sheppards or Rottweilers or any of so many other breeds that are made for protection but do you think they really want to take the chance on getting bit at all when they can simple move on to a house where they can't hear dogs barking an growling like crazy before they break that window ?
If every home in America had a pair of those ankle biters and every decent citizen carried a 380 in their pockets and used them to drive away and or shoot/kill a would be armed robber/Rapeist/Killer it would only take a few years and the statistics on crime in America would plummet like people wouldn't believe cause the BG's would either be dead or have left America for easier hunting grounds like say Canada which is rich with unarmed victims .
The answer to the Ops question is simple common sense while we have all heard the stories " and I'm sure many are 100% fact" of Bad guys or soldiers getting shot with major calibers and living long enough to go on to do amazing feats when it comes to a self defense piece the question becomes simply this .
How many criminals really want to get shot with any caliber when they could run away and live to try to victimize some1 else another day ?
A 380 , 32 acp and even the lowly 22 rimfire ain't gonna feel good when it hits them and the dirtbags know that and they also know it just might kill them . Do you think they think far enough ahead and take comfort in the fact that they may indeed slit your throat before they Bleed out from the wound of that "Lowly 380" ?
Think of it this way it's kinda like a having couple of 20 LB ankle biters for dogs in your house for protection . Now we all know they wont impress the would be burglars as much as a pair of 120+ LB German Sheppards or Rottweilers or any of so many other breeds that are made for protection but do you think they really want to take the chance on getting bit at all when they can simple move on to a house where they can't hear dogs barking an growling like crazy before they break that window ?
If every home in America had a pair of those ankle biters and every decent citizen carried a 380 in their pockets and used them to drive away and or shoot/kill a would be armed robber/Rapeist/Killer it would only take a few years and the statistics on crime in America would plummet like people wouldn't believe cause the BG's would either be dead or have left America for easier hunting grounds like say Canada which is rich with unarmed victims .
scurtis_34471
Member
The Rohrbaugh R9 is almost as unpleasant to shoot as a Skandium .357 J-Frame. The Kahr PM9 is only slightly bigger and is a LOT more pleasant to shoot. The Kahr can also handle +P ammo, while the Rohrbaugh cannot. The Rohrbaugh is a beautiful gun built like a Swiss watch, but I'm just not into pain.
huntsman
Member
I like it, instead of a chicken in every pot it could be a .380 in every pocket as a new campaign slogan.
KevininPa
Member
"I like my LCP. Not afraid to admit it. Now how the #$@% do i get some more ammo??? "
Easy. Reload. People thought I was nuts for buying dies and supplies for my Sig 232. They don't think I'm nuts now. They bought pocket rockets since and are always complaining about not having ammo. I'm still flush and shooting.
BTW, for me, the firearm picked the caliber. I love that Sig and it's my usual carry. It's even the heavier stainless model.
Easy. Reload. People thought I was nuts for buying dies and supplies for my Sig 232. They don't think I'm nuts now. They bought pocket rockets since and are always complaining about not having ammo. I'm still flush and shooting.
BTW, for me, the firearm picked the caliber. I love that Sig and it's my usual carry. It's even the heavier stainless model.
huntsman
Member
What's your set up? I'm trying to keep two .380 guns well fed and initially didn't want to do reloading but now I'm rethinking that decision.
Drgong
Member
Each person has there own needs when it comes to self-defense, .380s are small, light, easily concealed, and if you don't think a .380 will stop someone, just stand over there and take a center body mass shot. Personally, I am more of a .38 special J-frame type of guy, but some people cannot afford to buy a number of firearms, and if you where to get ONE firearm, one of the .380s are a good choice as they are very easy to carry. Yes, I know people claim to be able to hide a full size 1911 with nothing more on then a thong and Boa.
That, and for a lot of people, a .380 in a mousegun is a lot better shooting then 9mm in a mousegun.
That, and for a lot of people, a .380 in a mousegun is a lot better shooting then 9mm in a mousegun.
KevininPa
Member
Huntsman
A buddy and I chipped in on a couple of Lee reloaders. The model escapes me right now, but even though they are progressive loaders, they are not the top of their line. We went with two because I usually do the smaller calibers ( .380, 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Mag ), and he's into big bores ( .45ACP, .44 Special, .44Mag). Obviously I like the smaller calibers while he prefers the bigbores. We buy our own primers but often share powders. We can also shared costs on tumblers, polishing media, scales, etc. Since there is over 20 years difference in age we really don't hang out, so there isn't that possible friendship rift that happens with some couples of the same age. We hang out and shoot and have a few beers every now and then. So this set-up may last us for decades! I highly recomend sharing the costs with someone you trust. It makes it way cheaper.
The Lees we have needed a little tweaking, but they've been serving our purpose. We're happy with'em. It's nice to reload because then you can practice what you want to carry cheaper. When I bought my Sig, .380s were already more expensive than 9mm, but not by much. And that was 90-95 grain FMJs doing 800 FPS out of longer barrels like Berettas and CZs. Now they have wonder rounds out there for a fortune. I like the load I use for practice and carry. 3.3 grains Bullseye with a 100 grain FMJ. It gives me 900 to 950 FPS. I got this load from this site:
http://www.reloadammo.com/380auto.htm
He got higher FPS. I'm guessing he had a longer barrelled pistol. My numbers are from my Chrony. I like FMJs for penetration in smaller pistol calibers. If you know someone who already reloads, then you might just have to buy dies and supplies to cut your costs, just a suggestion. Good luck Huntsman in your decisions. Sorry this was so long.
A buddy and I chipped in on a couple of Lee reloaders. The model escapes me right now, but even though they are progressive loaders, they are not the top of their line. We went with two because I usually do the smaller calibers ( .380, 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Mag ), and he's into big bores ( .45ACP, .44 Special, .44Mag). Obviously I like the smaller calibers while he prefers the bigbores. We buy our own primers but often share powders. We can also shared costs on tumblers, polishing media, scales, etc. Since there is over 20 years difference in age we really don't hang out, so there isn't that possible friendship rift that happens with some couples of the same age. We hang out and shoot and have a few beers every now and then. So this set-up may last us for decades! I highly recomend sharing the costs with someone you trust. It makes it way cheaper.
The Lees we have needed a little tweaking, but they've been serving our purpose. We're happy with'em. It's nice to reload because then you can practice what you want to carry cheaper. When I bought my Sig, .380s were already more expensive than 9mm, but not by much. And that was 90-95 grain FMJs doing 800 FPS out of longer barrels like Berettas and CZs. Now they have wonder rounds out there for a fortune. I like the load I use for practice and carry. 3.3 grains Bullseye with a 100 grain FMJ. It gives me 900 to 950 FPS. I got this load from this site:
http://www.reloadammo.com/380auto.htm
He got higher FPS. I'm guessing he had a longer barrelled pistol. My numbers are from my Chrony. I like FMJs for penetration in smaller pistol calibers. If you know someone who already reloads, then you might just have to buy dies and supplies to cut your costs, just a suggestion. Good luck Huntsman in your decisions. Sorry this was so long.
makarovnik
Member
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I have always liked the .380, even before micro .380s started becoming popular.
Browning BDA, Beretta 84, Sig 232, PPK/S all good guns.
Browning BDA, Beretta 84, Sig 232, PPK/S all good guns.
huntsman
Member
Thanks that's what I was thinking about it's like $160. from midway
HardShell
Member
Why? Because .380 just happened to be the caliber of the pistol that fit my requirements for a pocketable defensive pistol within my current budget. The Mrs doesn't like me carrying at all but that is a wholy different topic. Since it is more challenging to CC my Glock 22 without the Mrs saying "why are you wearing THAT thing" I picked up a LCP and with my typical attire nobody knows it is even in my pocket.
Firearms, and especially concealed handguns are like camera systems, not one size fits all nor can each one do everything equally well. I'm an amateur photographer and have a decent investment in gear. Even though I take precautions to make my gear less of a target (like putting black tape over the model/manufacturer name) and using a non-descript camera bag more than once I've caught 'folks' paying a bit too much attention to my gear. I'm not exactly a small man and a decade+ in the military taught me how to take care of myself it is good to have "something" to tilt the odds in my favor should an unavoidable situation arise.
With a daugther in college we pay very close attention to the budget and I'm still saving for an AR/M4 clone. When she graduates next year my LCP will likely be my gift to her [assuming she doesn't claim my trusty Dan Wesson .357 which she likes shooting a bit too much given .38/.357 ammo availability lately].
Cheers
Chris in VA
Firearms, and especially concealed handguns are like camera systems, not one size fits all nor can each one do everything equally well. I'm an amateur photographer and have a decent investment in gear. Even though I take precautions to make my gear less of a target (like putting black tape over the model/manufacturer name) and using a non-descript camera bag more than once I've caught 'folks' paying a bit too much attention to my gear. I'm not exactly a small man and a decade+ in the military taught me how to take care of myself it is good to have "something" to tilt the odds in my favor should an unavoidable situation arise.
With a daugther in college we pay very close attention to the budget and I'm still saving for an AR/M4 clone. When she graduates next year my LCP will likely be my gift to her [assuming she doesn't claim my trusty Dan Wesson .357 which she likes shooting a bit too much given .38/.357 ammo availability lately].
Cheers
Chris in VA
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