Explain the AR platform to me.

[cheygriz]

I prefer to slice my own bread!

 

[fpgt72]

That part is closer to being true than you might think. The round you are referring to is the 458 Socom. Its ballistics are identical to mid-level 45/70 loads, you can push a 405 gr at 1600 fps+ out of a 16" barrel in a semi-auto platform.

As far as the rest of your post and the other examples you gave, not everybody like the same thing. I love blue and wood guns but like the plastic ones too. I served in the Army so that is where I learned the AR. Is the the end all be all that some make it out to be, no. But it is a lot fun, lots of options, push 2 pins and switch calibers. Can be worked on, built by, and repaired by just about anyone with a little research.

I get that...pretend gunsmith. And just because I carried one, does not mean I want all other things to be left in the dust for this one platform.

 

[fpgt72]

There is no explanation for it. It exists, like oatmeal and the universe.

I get this, it will fill the pit, or scratch the itch, but if you have a choice of bacon and eggs, or oatmeal I know what I will choose.

 

[<*(((><]

I get this, it will fill the pit, or scratch the itch, but if you have a choice of bacon and eggs, or oatmeal I know what I will choose.

But what about those vegans out there? Those poor people can only eat oatmeal.

I will say that it can get a little bit out of hand how much emphasis is put on black rifles these days, but it’s what is selling so companies will chase it. And I’m all for it because the more ARs we can put in people’s hands the better because they are the stop gap for gun control. And we all know what happens if they get the ARs, next in line, their end game is all firearms.

 

[fpgt72]

After WW1, EVERYBODY who could afford a 1903 Springfield bought one. It was the thing to do. It was also a fine rifle.

After WW2, everybody wanted an M-1 Garand. It was the thing to have. Also a fine rifle

Today, it's the AR. Also a fine rifle.

If a cperson wants a rifle to hang over the mantle and admire as a piece of art, he buys a Sako, Weatherby, CZ etc.

If he wants a shooter to throw in the back of his pickup, he buys an AR.

Different people have different tastes. If someone gave me a rifle with deep blue metal and fine Walnut, I would send it to McMillan for a good synthetic stock and have the metal phosphated.

You like blue steel and Walnut. I like fibreglass and phosphate.

You pays yer money and you takes yer pick.

Now this is a well thought out comment, none of the stupid when the world comes to an end and the zombies invade garbage.

Perhaps I am stuck in the past, I want something that will work, as well have class.....it seems many here are interested in no class....I guess I can get that. I have a hard time thinking in 100 years time people will be looking at an AR or glock and thinking wow I would really like to have one of those like they do looking at a Garand or 1903 to use examples already brought up.

Guess I am not happy with the lack of choice out there, if you want an automatic in 223 you really have but one choice in the real world.....guess some people like not having options I am not one of those people. Guess that is why when I get the itch to shoot 223 I will grab anything but an AR.

 

[fpgt72]

But what about those vegans out there? Those poor people can only eat oatmeal.

I will say that it can get a little bit out of hand how much emphasis is put on black rifles these days, but it’s what is selling so companies will chase it. And I’m all for it because the more ARs we can put in people’s hands the better because they are the stop gap for gun control. And we all know what happens if they get the ARs, next in line, their end game is all firearms.

Do you think the market is to the point where there are so many of them, any fool can screw one together, so perhaps there is an untouched market for something that is not a plastic fantastic.

 

[alfsauve]

The modularity has my vote. Multiple configurations and calibers all of which can be changed out in the field with minimal of tools.

I bought an National Match A2 way back thinking I'd shoot high power competition. Never did shoot it much nor cared for it. Then I started to realize, as did the market, what a wonderful baseline the design was for making any configuration you wanted. I've purpose built 5 since then configuring each exactly like I wanted.

For those unaware, wood furniture is available for the AR.

 

[<*(((><]

I'm not trying to strike up an argument, but it seems you are set in your ways which is fine. But objectivity is a great thing to have when dealing with ideals/ideas different from ourselves. The terms you use "plastic fantastic" just points to someone who grew up in an era and hasn't left it (and I'm not trying to be rude or demeaning here, I can be the same way with electronic technology and how people are so tied to needing it these days). The younger generation (and I'm closer to them then you most likely) could point to your beautiful walnut and steel and wonder why even bother with taking a 2x4 and whittling it down to a stock and attaching a barrel that will rust if left in the rain?

There's somewhere in between, and it's objectivity when it comes to technological advances.

Polymers ("plastic fantastic") have revolutionized firearms to a degree (I've seen lots of cracked frames on "old iron", bet that doesn't happen as often with polymer framed handguns and if it does it usually is an easy replacement), that doesn't mean old iron doesn't have it's place. And, I do have an affinity towards classic firearms but I think like @cheygriz points out, this debate happens every generation shift.

 

[cheygriz]

The market dictates what is manufactured and marketed. And "The Market" is you and me. If we wanted a fancy double rifle with AAA walnut and class "A" engraving, (and we were willing to pay for it) I can guarantee you Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Browning etc would manufacture and market them.

Fortunately for Americans, there is always the "custom" route available for those who want something that isn't mass produced.

 

[someguy2800]

Freedom of choice means one choice....as long as that choice is an AR platform.

I have never heard anyone say you shouldn't buy something unless its an AR. Your creating your own reality.

I get that...pretend gunsmith.

Yes I guess I am a pretend gunsmith. I'm also a pretend mechanic, a pretend engine builder, a pretend transmission builder, a pretend welder/fabricator, a pretend carpenter, a pretend landscaper, a pretend logger, a pretend plumber and electrician, a pretend forrester, and a pretend race car driver. Self reliance is a virtue.

Perhaps I am stuck in the past, I want something that will work, as well have class.....it seems many here are interested in no class....I guess I can get that. I have a hard time thinking in 100 years time people will be looking at an AR or glock and thinking wow I would really like to have one of those like they do looking at a Garand or 1903 to use examples already brought up.

These are my two favorite guns. One built in 1899 at springfield armory, one built from pieces in 2017 on the bench in my shed. Variety is the spice of life.





Likewise these are my two favorite handguns. I apreciate them both for what they are and what they are not.

 

[<*(((><]

You just had to go and show that Krag didn't you, that is awesome! Everytime I see that I want to do the same, but need to find one that has already been bubba'd.

 

[<*(((><]

Someday's I feel like levers, someday's revolvers, some days AR's and some day's bolt guns. I get satisfaction out of them all, as they all have their virtues.

And I appreciate self-reliance/ingenuity, it's what has made America, America. And the AR is as self-reliant as far as upkeep as firearms get.

But I'm with the OP it would be a shame if all the options of other platforms went away, but we are FAR from that. There are still manufacturers producing all steel handguns, revolvers, bolt actions, lever actions, and even black powder firearms.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want at least one of every type firearm ever made.

 

[CoalTrain49]

But what about those vegans out there? Those poor people can only eat oatmeal.

Self inflicted wound.

 

[someguy2800]

I just thought of another very valuable attribute. My wife is going to notice $600 on the credit card for a new gun. But a lower reciever and a stock this month, a BCG next month, a barrel the month after that.......

 

[taliv]

Ok, you got me, I don't have much hands on experience with many modern designs, but I do have some experience with AUG's, and unless shooting from the opposite shoulder is a necessity for you, its hands down better ergo's than an AR. The Tavor SAR, is also more natural, and can be shot from either shoulder if thats a requirement.

To be honest, I'm just bitter. I've read for years how the AR is so ergonomic, and now that I finally broke down and got one, it simply does not meet the hype in that aspect. If you trained and fought with one, I understand you gain a keen familiarity with the rifle, and for those who like it, more power to ya, but unlike the internet would have you believe, the AR ergo's are not in fact the best thing since sliced bread.

stop being bitter and get educated. the AR is vastly more ergonomic than an AUG. If the AUG was more ergonomic, you'd see them winning matches. Instead, you almost never see them at matches, or any bullpup for that matter. Shooting from opposite shoulder should be a necessity for everyone. Ergonomic isn't just having lefty friendly controls (which bullpups (including the tavor) suck at because they eject hot brass into your face when you switch shoulders) but how many movements it takes to accomplish a task. go watch youtube videos of people reloading AUGs. Tavor isn't too bad, but it's definitely worse/slower than an AR. I'd like to see the immediate action drills for the AUG or Tavor. Many lifetimes of experience have gone into developing the malfunction clearing drills for AR15s that people like the late great Pat Rogers taught. It's hard to overemphasize the importance of that. There is no equivalent of that for the AUG or tavor. I love the idea of bullpups, but none of the ones I've owned have actually improved anything but OAL.

 

[ATLDave]

IME, bullpups are one of those things that sound cooler/better than they are in practice.

 

[ATLDave]

There's a concept in economics called "network effects." AR's have benefited from them. The very fact that they are extremely popular means that there are loads of people innovating for them, offering upgrades, driving down cost on commodity-grade parts, etc.

The "open source" nature of the gun/system is part of this dynamic. The plans have been in the public domain for decades, and there are no IP licenses to be obtained to make them. They use machined aluminum for the upper and lower, which means you don't have to have the massive up-front investment of injection-molding. They were a modern enough design to be intended to work with typical mil-grade manufacturing tolerances. All these things have made for low barriers to entry into the marketplace. Some of the more popular AR makers today didn't even exist 15 or 20 years ago.

And, unlike a lot of semi-auto rifles, it's not that fundamentally difficult to build one that shoots quite accurately. Getting an M1 or a FAL or even a Steyr Aug (from what I have read) to shoot 1 MOA is a major undertaking. Nowadays, it is shockingly easy to get a 1 MOA AR rifle built.

 

[ttarp]

stop being bitter and get educated

Kinda rude, maybe you're right though, I think my understanding of ergonomics is a little different, or at least has a different emphasis than yours. Not that you'd care, but you really haven't said anything to change my mind, just try not to be offended I don't think the AR is the end all of rifles, and dared to voice that opinion.

 

[Choctaw]

You have no idea how little I care about your opinion of the AR.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Unlike this soon to be closed thread AR's serve a purpose for a large number of people.

 

[<*(((><]

Kinda rude, maybe you're right though, I think my understanding of ergonomics is a little different, or at least has a different emphasis than yours. Not that you'd care, but you really haven't said anything to change my mind, just try not to be offended I don't think the AR is the end all of rifles, and dared to voice that opinion.

I don't think he was being rude. You called yourself bitter, I think @taliv was just trying to point out you may be missing something by your "bitterness", which I would have to agree as these discussions get filled with quite a few people who just don't like change. I'm not saying everyone, but there is a segment that just wants to hate on AR's because they are popular and not what they are used to, as they grew up in a different era. Getting people past that and their "bitterness" towards an object may be a way of enlightening them into something that if they gave it a fair shake they might actually see the merits behind it.

I've seen quite a few threads in the past few years that start something like this:

I wanted to hate AR's for so long, up until I tried one and now I have 6 of them.

But if they are not for you, they are not for you. I don't particularly find much interest in 12" long barreled revolvers but some do.

 

[maxxhavoc]

OK, I like them all.

The AR is a reliable platform that can be put together from parts quickly and easily. I like things I built (or put together) better than something with a warranty. As a matter of fact, I can't even understand the POINT of a warranty on an AR. I can't think of any parts more expensive than shipping a gun, except the barrel. Even then, I would see a defective barrel as an opportunity to get a better one.

Also, the caliber choice. .223 (or 5.56) is my least favorite AR caliber. I still use ir for the ammo selection, though. But a 9mm AR is a great PCC. I haven't shot the Hi-Point hardly any since I built the 9mm AR. It is just better in every way. I have an SKS and AK, I like them, but the 7.62x29 AR gets more range time - Shoots straighter and handles better for me.

But I don't agree with the ergonomics love. Shooting from a bench, the AR is harder to work with than wood stocked rifles for me. Sling use just doesn't work as easily as it does on a Garand, or 1903, or carbine, or Mini 14. Prone, I find the AR to be just irritating. The protriding grip just gets in the way, and like the M14, you need to roll out of prone a bit to reload. For standing and kneeling they work better, but I don't like running and gunning as much as other AR fans. It is adjustable to smaller shooters, but the M16 style rifle stock is good LOP for me and more stable in position shooting.

And I do like assembling them. I have built a Garand and a 1911 from parts, but I still enjoy turning a AR parts kit into another gun I don't really need.
When changing the shelf height in the safe I found an AR I forgot I had...curse PSA and their "special store grand opening lower...and "SC Strong flood victim relief lower" (see avatar.) and....As a matter of fact whenever I walk into the PSA store to buy ammo, I end up coming out with a $200 pistol or Clearance upper or too-cheap lower.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I didn't start out as a fan of the design. My initial impression of the AR was not favorable. I put a couple hundred rounds through a friend's Bushmaster. It was generally reliable with most ammo, but the then we got around to cleaning it. The receiver seemed like such a mess! And the noise from the buffer tube was annoyingly distracting. Real rifles don't sound like pogo sticks! Spoing! And it continued in the Corp. I was introduced to an M16A2 in boot camp. We spent so much time cleaning those rifles before we ever fired a round through them, and even then, more time was spent with the rifle in drill than on the range. I hate drill. Hate actually isn't a strong enough word. Loath? Detest? Still not strong enough. Then it was on to the M16A4, and again, I could shoot it well, but the buffer noise, and the ridiculous degree of anal retentive the armorers were just made Eugene's rifle seem like more of a PITA than it was worth. The armorers wouldn't let you turn in your rifle if they could find a single spec of dust in the picitanny rails or the around the pressure switch for the Surefire white light, or any number of other seemingly non-consequential places they knew to look. As a civilian, I remained more a fan of the M1. I adored my M1A, right up until it rattled itself loose and started having parts fly off of it. Then I started looking around. The market being what it is, it is hard to get anywhere without dealing with an AR. So I did. The more I studied the market, and options available, the accessories, the more it started to appeal to me. But I resisted. I still didn't want to like the little rifle that crapped where it ate. It took me a while to come around to it. In the end, it was the most foolish of reasons; this was the gun the antis were most opposed to be possessing. The hype concerning the AR coming from the left is always ludicrous, you wonder if they can hear themselves speak. Two things gradually became available to me; with the civilian market surrounding the AR, no other design is as capable, modular, or versatile and, if I ever wanted to own something of the type, I should do it while they are still legal. I had a decent job, so I bought a Colt 6920 and put an Aimpoint on it. I only got about 500 rounds through it before it was stolen from my truck while I was in the process of moving, but they were an enlightening 500 rounds. The Magpul stock didn't seem to have nearly the buffer noise that the other ARs had. The Colt was accurate, lightweight, ergonomic, and well, fun. I didn't have the sneak the rifle past over zealous armorers so the maintenance didn't seem like such a pain. I shot several hundred rounds through it without cleaning it, just to prove it could, and from then on, I would just throw a new coat of CLP on the BCG every time I fired a mag or two through it, and only really took it apart for cleaning one more time in the next couple hundred rounds. And having it taken from me was like finally finding true love only to have it taken from me. It made me sick just thinking about it. I had only had one for several months but I needed an AR in my life. So I saved up and was finally able to buy another Colt, this one a 6960 CCU.

The AR is lightweight, ergonomic, accurate, and easy to shoot well. It is generally reliable and easy to maintain. It is modular and versatile. It's default cartridge makes an excellent candidate for defensive use and can be used to hunt small game, predators, and hogs, as well as deer in some states. It is flat shooting at close to moderate range, has low recoil, and is relatively cheap. Not a lot to not like with the AR, actually.

 

[someguy2800]

When I shot my first one I was unimpressed. When I built my first one I was unimpressed. Shooting groups and doing load development I was unimpressed. I was about to sell mine when suddenly I had the "AHAH moment". I started making games for myself shooting steel plates. Like how fast can I knock over these 6 plates from 50 to 300 yards? How fast can I put 5 rounds on a 4" swinger at 200 yards? Once I figured out AR's are for shooting stuff, not paper I suddenly started appreciating it because now it can do what my dozen odd other rifles cannot.