Eye contact, yes or no?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Excellent posts.

The eye-contact social rules are a little different for women, I think. We still need to send the message that we saw the guy (and could identify him in a line up later!), but there's also that really risky thing where any woman making eye contact with a guy is presumed to be coming on to him.

Thoughts?

pax
 
The eye contact thing has always served me well. I've never had any situations where I knew I was in trouble, but I did wander into the DC hood accidentally once (long story). I sometimes give a little smile or grin, too, just to throw off guard (works on anybody, really). Kinda goes with the 'keep em guessing' approach. I saw a sign once that said "Smile, people will wonder what you're up to" or something similar, and I think it's true.
 
Good points. Back to the first post, everything seemed OK, except for the part about showing the palms. About a year ago I attended a training course that included a self-defense component conducted by the local PD training staff. Their suggestions were that you want the back of the hands pointed at a potential attacker, for a couple of reasons:

1) It is easier to block an attack from getting to your trunk, and
2) if that attack includes an edged weapon you will be able to deflect it without exposing the most vulnerable parts of the hands and arms. Even if you are cut, a cut to the back of the hand or forearm is less likely to be incapacitating or to include cuts to your arteries.
 
Note that almost all body language is cultural.

For example, note carefully when speaking who looks at what.

Generally, caucasions will look at the listener when speaking, and the listener will look away. The exception is when the speaker is searching memory. The pattern is generally opposite for many black Americans.

Regarding the body language of hands.

Palm up is a weak, submissive gesture, suggesting supplication, implying the audience is in a position of greater power.

Palm down is a strong, dominant gesture, suggesting command (eg "calm down"), implying the speaker is in a position of greater power.

Regardless of the actual technique, the key isn't to signal domination, but to signal "self contained power simply passing through with an agenda that doesn't include the audience, and therefore is not a threat"
 
I have not been in any altercations....

for a long, long time. Now, everywhere I go I am well armed, usually two guns and a fighting knife. I guess it helps that I am a 6 ft 250 lb powerlifter. I usually use the double, and even a triple, "look. I look and make inital eye contact, then look in the direction I am going. I immediately look back at the person to see what they are doing. Usually they are surprised that I am looking at them again. I also have that "biker look", seeing I have been riding since 1958. I guess maybe THEY are scoping me out to see what I am going to do to THEM..........chris3
 
If you really want to learn about body language, positioning, threatening postures, etc. find a friendly jailer to talk to. I've learned more in a few minutes about human and predatory behavior talking to one of those guys than in all the psych classes I've ever taken. There's a good reason many agencies want officers to work the jail for a year or so before they go on the street. You get a concentrated education in "thug etiquette" in a controlled environment, and you gain an appreciation for the little positioning games they play. Being able to "cross the T" with minimum body movement has completely befuddled inmates trying to play the "get inside the officer's guard" game with me. Little things like that, repositioning without retreating, etc., come in handy on the street.
 
pax

a look and a smile might show intrest, a look with no expression or a frown means something else. of course the folks you might want to "flirt" with and those you believe want to do you harm should be two different sets of people.
for guys i think Forest Whitaker has "the" look he can smile at you but his eyes say that smile is a lie and he might hurt you if he has to.
Bill Duke can do this also, to a lesser extent.
 
Many of the Self defense "Experts" of today teach folks to look a potential attacker directly in the eyes. They are then aware that you are fully cognizant of their presence and approach to you and also not looking someone in the eye is a distinct sign of the "Victim" mentality, just who they are looking for. There is no need for it to be a "Challenge" look.
 
I can recall an incident that I was in, when I was attacked by a knife wielding nut job, looking for money. Being that I am alert, I became suspicious when he let his dog loose. Rather than lookingat his eyes or the dogs, I paid attention to the entire situation, and saw the knife and was able to be prepared when he came at me with it. Ultimately I was able to disarm him, and come out unscathed. Had I been paying attention to his eyes, I may very well be six feet under, and not on THR right now (He was going for my throat). I should mention that I was completely unarmed at the time. Yes, being on the recieving end of a Leatherman is a scary experience, and I had actually been stabbed before (idiot with a razor knife/ boxcutter slashed me, 2.5- 3" scar for no reason at all (just below the elbow on my dominate arm).
 
Looking at people and doing something to acknowledge their presence helps.

Whether a quick nod of the head, "hello", or whatever you think is most appropriate.

It is also the polite thing to do.
 
The eyes will never kill you, so don't pay much attention to them.

WATCH HIS HANDS
WATCH HIS HANDS
WATCH HIS HANDS

Hands kill.

Besides, locking eyes is the way all mammals signal aggression and a desire to fight. It's a horrible idea to try to stare your way out of a fight or "take control" by proving yourself the biggest silverback. Maybe Sam Elliot could get away with it, but not a normal mortal. And it's a risk to try. Be meek, be mild, watch the hands and make sure your firearm is ready to roll the second you see a deadly weapon come out. You are under no obligation to communicate with strangers or potential threats. You're not a cop. You don't have to answer their challenge or look them in the eye. You owe them NOTHING.
 
Cosmo- 100% correect. I would probably not be here (see the story in my first post) had I been watching the eyes. Speaking from experience:barf:
 
Anything submissive that you may do only encourages the perp. Most perps are cowards that pick out weak targets. If you act submissive, you assume the role of a victim, and they pounce.

What I think works best is an attentive, slightly frowning stare. It says "I saw you, I am watching you, and I'll know the second you move a muscle." It also keeps them off-balance, because they do not know what your plan is. Look them in the eye to show you are not intimidated, then scan them up and down. Iterate. Many perps rely on surprise and the fear/paralysis/panic generated by the surprise. When they know they are tracked and assessed, they know the element of surprise is lost. That unnerves them.

Keep your hands in your pockets. Let them wonder if you are squeezing your mace can, cocking your smokewagon, or fondling a folding knife. Let them fear what they do not know.

The rest of your body should be drawn to full length, stomach in, shoulders back, breasts up and out. Stance should be open, stable, and comfortable. You are at ease but alert. Imagine you are a lion looking at the gazelles. No slouching, stooping, cold shoulder, making yourself small or submissive.

Finally, everyday items you carry convey stance too. I sometimes carry an umbrella, especially in the rainy season. I have a big non-folder with a large wooden handle and a spike at the other end. If I put it under my upper arm, it looks passive, but I like carrying it like a club on my shoulder, or like a katana in my weak hand. People subconsciously notice the stance and give me a wide berth.

I don't think it is any different for women. The sad irony is that women are taught to be submissive "so they do not get hurt". My guess is they get hurt more that way. If you project a confident, alert, energetic attitude, the perp would likely go pick on somebody else. If you behave like a scared doe ready to faint, they will probably swoop in.

The "appeasement" nonsense is generally advertised by people that have never been in a fight, and so toil under the illusion they can "talk themselves out of it".

If you are a woman, move into a lit, populated area, make a commotion, draw attention to yourself and the situation. Before you even know it, there could be somebody like me moving in with "What's going on here?"
 
“Had I been paying attention to his eyes, I may very well be six feet under, and not on THR right now (He was going for my throat).”

MP510
That was a good idea on your part. I don’t think anyone was saying to look at the eyes during a confrontation, knife fight etc…. What I , and the guy I quoted are talking about is how to avoid a fight!




Cannonear You said “What I think works best is an attentive, slightly frowning stare. It says "I saw you, I am watching you, and I'll know the second you move a muscle." It also keeps them off-balance, because they do not know what your plan is. Look them in the eye to show you are not intimidated, then scan them up and down. Iterate. Many perps rely on surprise and the fear/paralysis/panic generated by the surprise. When they know they are tracked and assessed, they know the element of surprise is lost. That unnerves them.”

Dude, what can I say? As I was reading your post, the memory of a guy in a bar, somewhere in Georgia, back in about 1986, came to mind. The guy did like you are saying to do, and he got the you know what kicked out of him. It started when a guy took umbrage to being stared at, and ended with the starrier curled up in the fetal position on the floor, with blood, snot and tears frothing up as he mumbled about his arm and teeth…. I found one of his teeth on the pool table…. Do you have your permanent teeth? I would say that something like 80-95% of fights start with a stare…….that’s how important the eyes are.


“Keep your hands in your pockets. Let them wonder if you are squeezing your mace can, cocking your smokewagon, or fondling a folding knife. Let them fear what they do not know.”

That’s just wrong on so many levels. It’s human nature to destroy the thing you fear, think about it.
 
Wow, so much to read and comment on! Slow moment at work, so I am going to throw in my two cents worth.

Lots of good advice here. Personally, I always look a potential attacker in the eyes. The key here is to maintain proper distance so you can see his arms and hands while maintaining a neutral gaze. Any closer than that, and I would consider it a provocation. But, I take medication for that...

Seriously, I do! ;)

I'll be, oh, 39 at the end of this month, and I have been in only one fight in my adult life, which happened at a bar, and I was totally blitzed. I tried to step the testosterone level of the encounter down with some sensible words, but that didn't work.

Anyway, I was always picked on while growing up because I was the smart, nerdy, small kid. Well, I started training in karate at 17, and weight lifting at 19. As a result, I got pretty honed for fighting, BUT, I never did get into a conflict because of the way I presented myself. Believe me, I had lots of opportunity. I usually de-escalated the situation by simply being ready for it. "Back in the day" I had a social-anxiety disorder, where I suppose I was feaful of confrontations, but when the fight or flight response kicked in, I was always ready for the fight portion. I would never start the confrontation, but boy, was I ready to participate in it. I mean really ready. It was sort of thing where my body language would say "I don't want to fight you, but if you want to fight anyway, I will not only defend myself, but I will attack you back. I will hurt you." It was always that way; the fear response would kick in, adrenaline would flood my system, breathing would get more rapid, I would aquire that look on my face that was neither aggressive nor frightened, more of an expectant look. And, I would watch the would-be attacker as if I expected him to do something. That alone has gotten me out of numerous encounters. Maybe the BG was thinking "this dude is freaking nuts, uh, probably not worth it".

But, like I said, I am on medication that takes care of my anger and aggression issues. But, I did learn some things out of all this. Most importantly, I think, is attitude. Do not appear to be a victim. To help with this, one posture which works is leaning forward with your head a little. Really, this is important in many aspects of life, including things like sales. A person who carries himself/herself with their head slightly forward signifies someone who is confident, capable of handling themselves, someone who moves with authority into a situation. People who carry themselves with their heads back are often viewed to be in a retreating situation already, unsure of themselves, weak.

Not always 100% true, but if you were an attacker, would you be more likely to attack someone who is leaning slightly towards you, hands half-clenched at their sides, or someone with their head leaning back, showing you their palms? It goes back to our primitive responses.

If you look like a good victim, you probably are one. The meager looking old man who turns into the ex-navyseal martial arts master who kicks the collective butts of an attacking group only happens in the movies.

Nothing works all the time, though. The best way to avoid an attack is not to be there in the first place.

Wow, I am babbling now. Back to work.
 
Cosmoline, the situation where I suggest making brief eye contact, is with a potential BG. Situation where you think to yourself “oops, this can’t be good”. All I can say is that doing so has gotten me out of some tough spots.

When I said “5. Take control, this one is more for a work setting but its pretty cool. The next time someone looses their cool and wants to get in your face, meet them at eye level, show your palms and say "have a seat" or "come in" or "SLOW down" then offer them a stick of gum or something. Then, as soon as they have complied, take further control by saying something like "ok, in one sentence tell me what the problem is and what you suggest we do about it”
I wasn’t talking about showing dominance, I was talking about reacting to someone who gets in your face. The point I was trying to get across is that the best way to react is to make the other guy react to the things you say and do, then use that to lead him away from violence. Once I was playing pool in Florida and this Canadian came at me, in a rage, yelling “you better stay away from my wife!!” instead of arguing with him, I did the hand thing (with the Q in both hands, palms out) and calmly said “what dose she look like, so I’ll know?” He lowered his voice and calmly said “uh. That’s her over there” I had never laid eyes on her, but that didn’t matter, the situation was defused.



“…Its heard to put things like this into words but I watch the eyes and shoulders, any movement in the shoulders and I'm looking to see what the hands are doing. As a matter a fact, I remember a guy who kept moving like he was going to throw one, but every time he was about to, I shifted my gaze to his hands and he would think again.”


“WATCH HIS HANDS
WATCH HIS HANDS
WATCH HIS HANDS

Hands kill”

Like I said it’s heard to put things like this into words. I agree with you, to a point, especially if you’re a cop interviewing a perp, but for a guy collecting his winnings or facing I jealous husband etc.? I didn’t read this in a book or learn it in a dojo, it is just the way I developed, I could be wrong but it seems like the hands cannot get into play without the shoulders telling and it seems safer keeping the center of my focus at that level and watching everything else in my peripheral vision. Hands up and ready to guard of strike, but in a non-threatening manner, making the other guy react towards de-escalation.
 
but for a guy collecting his winnings or facing I jealous husband etc.

These are two situations that, if you believe them to be life-threatening, can easily be avoided. Don't get into them.

If you make your money by gambling in the underworld, you're not being defensive. You are taking an offensive stance simply by voluntarily going where you could be killed. The rules are different if that's where you're coming from, and that's not really the high road if I may say so.

As far as a jealous husband? Don't screw married women. And if you're really caught in a situation where you are entirely innocent, then eye contact might well be appropriate while discussing this fact. If someone is really attacking you, then treat it as an active attack; the fact that it is a nut-job husband is irrelavent.
 
If someone looks at you wrong. And they have some intent. Pull out your pee-pee and say " Mommy made me do it." ! Then laugh and wag your tongue around like the exorcist. It also works, on door to door salesman and traffic cops. :confused: :evil:
 
As I was reading your post, the memory of a guy in a bar, somewhere in Georgia, back in about 1986, came to mind. I would say that something like 80-95% of fights start with a stare…….that’s how important the eyes are.

There is a big difference between picking a fight with some drunk ruffian and his friends in a bar, and letting a hooligan/mugger on the street know his game is up. In the first case, you are looking for it in an easily defusible/avoidable situation. In the second case, the situation is thrust upon you and it is up to you to respond appropriately.

That’s just wrong on so many levels. It’s human nature to destroy the thing you fear, think about it.

Again, what is the setting? If you frequent shady dives, look dangerous, and pick fights, they certainly would strive to eliminate you as the threat. If you are on the street dealing with a hooligan or a mugger, their mentality and expectations are quite different - they just leave if they are scared or if they feel the advantage of surprise is lost.

Hooligans/muggers/ aggressive beggars are hyenas; drunk ruffians and barbirds are grizzlies.
 
These are two situations that, if you believe them to be life-threatening, can easily be avoided. Don't get into them.

Exactly. Avoidance is the key. Run away, take cover. Never go into seedy bars. Don't linger where you may be approached, and if you are approached leave. When you must be in a seedy area, don't give people lights, don't talk to people and don't make eye contact with people. Go about your business, and concentrate on watching for concealment, cover, and HANDS. Keep on moving until you get out of the danger zone.

Believe me, your peripheral vision is not going to be enough to see the threat coming in time. Eye contact is for job interviews and that sort of nonsense. It has no place as a conflict avoidance tactic.
 
Horsesense- The absolute last thing I would do in a potentially violent conflict is the classic "sucker punch". Why? Because the only reason I would strike at another person is if I felt like I was in imminent danger with no reasonable chance of escape. If you are find yourself in a conflict and you don't have an escape avenue planned, you've already screwed up.

Screwed up or not, your in a situation that you want to get out of, spilt milk and all that. Failing to plan for your own mistakes is the biggest mistake of all. There is old saying, I cant remember who it was who is credited with it (I think it was a boxer), it goes something like; "Every fighter has a plan, untill they get hit in the mouth". That is the truth, best to plan for not having a plan. If things always went according to how they should, you would never even to worry about the whole problem in the first place.

IME most of the people that get sucker punched are not even hurt.

I dont even know what to say to this. Maybe I went to different bars or a different school or something, but ive seen a lot of guys put down for good on a sucker punch. The only time I have ever seen a person actually "knocked out" was a fist from behind while arguing with someone else, went down like a ton of bricks. Even if it doesnt have such a dramatic effect, the disorientation from a solid and unexpected hit to the cranium is enough to send things in a different direction.
 
As I have said in several posts, I am extremely weak, very immobile and always come off as easy prey. I have yet to have a robbery attempt on me but I have been asked for money and cigarettes (sorry, I don't smoke cigs, only cigars). I was even followed to work a couple of blocks (had a post about that a few weeks ago here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=192467) . I always make eye contact with people. I generally smile and I comment first if I think someone is going to ask for money/food/etc. when I am downtown. As a Christian, I feel commissioned to help those in need. I do this mostly by referring them three blocks down to a homeless shelter run by a personal friend of mine. I never give out money. I have given out food before when returning to my office with left over Subway. I say this not to "toot my own horn" but because I think that showing compassion is what sets apart from the animal kingdom. It is, admittedly, hard to find the balance. I think commenting first gives you the upper hand. Most people are wearing their "mean down-town face" but when you ask them how they are, it melts if they suspect you're being genuine.

I generally have had more flack making eye contact from a vehicle than from just walking. Maybe people feel they can flex their egos if someone is behind the wheel and less likely to pull over.

Any suggestions?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top