Face It, There's Already a Gun Owner Registry

[CmdrSlander]

If the Federal Government really wanted to come after everyone that owns a modern sporting rifle or standard capacity magazine, the information needed to do so is only a few subpoenas away.

One could get most of the Modern Sporting Rifles, or at least most of the ones that are in the hands of people likely to resist a Federal confiscation, by cross referencing/pooling:

-List of NRA members (the NRA has it somewhere - subpoena), pro gun activists like us are likely to own the guns currently targeted and are likely to be non-compliant.
-People with Concealed Carry Permits (state database), if you've jumped through the hoops to get a CWP/CCL you probably like guns, and if you like guns you probably own an MSR or banned magazine.
-People with registered NFA items (existing Federal database), if you own an NFA item you are probably invested in the shooting sports to the point that you own something they want to make illegal.
-Online gun retailer purchase histories (Buds, Midway, Brownells - subpoena), it wouldn't be hard to check these for recent purchases of Modern Sporting Rifles, MSR accessories, mags and other items.

Pool these four existing electronic database and you'd have the vital information of about 85-90% of Modern Sporting Rifle owners. There may not be a formal registry, but it wouldn't be hard to find all the personal information needed to raid gun owners using existing databases.

We still need to fight a formal registry on all levels, but my point is, if it ever gets as far as confiscation, don't think that not having any weapons registered will save you from getting raided/searched. We have to defeat this before that happens.

Edit to Add: My point is, in the modern age, the government knows or could easily find out all there is to know about you. We must elect a government that either will not or cannot abuse this information.

 

[Torian]

True, to a point, however none of my firearms are in a "database" by serial number to my knowledge.

The issue is not whether the feds know you own firearms, but rather what type you own. Clearly if you have NFA items, they will be on record.

I have a Florida permit, and unlike some states (New Yorkifornia), none of my firearms are listed on it.

An easily accessible mass database is what would facilitate mass gun confiscation in the event that such laws were passed. Trying to pursue mass gun confiscation without such a registry would require significant work and due diligence on the part of the government if it wanted to go after gun owners. This "old-fashioned" way of maintaining paper records is often what I think helps preserve our rights.

 

[CmdrSlander]

True, to a point, however none of my firearms are in a "database" by serial number to my knowledge.

The issue is not whether the feds know you own firearms, but rather what type you own. Clearly if you have NFA items, they will be on record.

I have a Florida permit, and unlike some states (New Yorkifornia), none of my firearms are listed on it.

An easily accessible mass database is what would facilitate mass gun confiscation in the event that such laws were passed.

Serial numbers, no, but they could easily build a profile of an MSR owner and use 4473s, online purchase history to figure out who has them and how many they have.

 

[22-rimfire]

There is a difference between thinking a citizen owns a firearm or a firearm/accessory that is illegal and actually knowing that such exists in an individual owner's possession.

It would still take a huge investment in time and materials to construct such a database that would be chalked full of errors and the database is currently illegal even for the government to construct.

 

[Torian]

Serial numbers, no, but they could easily build a profile of an MSR owner and use 4473s, online purchase history to figure out who has them and how many they have

True, however you would likely already be on their radar for something else if they started taking it that far.

My point is with a mass registry accessible by all federal agencies...it wouldn't take more than idle curiosity and a few keystrokes to make you a target.

 

[joeschmoe]

Subpoena requires oath or affirmation of evidence in an investigation of a crime. What crime is it they are investigating? No crime, no subpoena.
Even easier would be 4473's. They can't use those either without a crime to investigate.
Your posts on here could also add you to such a list.
There is also the problem of that pesky 2nd Amendment. But there is the practical problem of how do you confiscate 300 million guns from 100 million armed citizens who know their rights? You can't. Fantasy.

 

[Yo Mama]

True registration tracks the exact firearm from owner to owner. You think the NRA will give up it's members? Not gonna happen.

The numbers of prohibited possessors with a known weapon are huge. These are people that the police know about but don't have the time or ability to go get. You think the gov will have the ability to go after lawful gun owners also?

 

[CmdrSlander]

True registration tracks the exact firearm from owner to owner. You think the NRA will give up it's members? Not gonna happen.

The numbers of prohibited possessors with a known weapon are huge. These are people that the police know about but don't have the time or ability to go get. You think the gov will have the ability to go after lawful gun owners also?

I'm not saying they will, I'm saying its possible.

 

[Yo Mama]

Anything is possible! Is it probable?

 

[USAF_Vet]

There has to be a reason to subpoena all of that information. As it stands, no one, not even the almighty 0bama, has that reason. Not to mention that compiling all of that data would take a large team several months, if not years to sift through. Then once you have your list of all MSR's in the country, you then have to verify that the people on your list still actually have those guns. So until we completely throw out the 4th amendment, this is pure and total fantasy.

 

[Deer_Freak]

True registration tracks the exact firearm from owner to owner. You think the NRA will give up it's members? Not gonna happen.

The numbers of prohibited possessors with a known weapon are huge. These are people that the police know about but don't have the time or ability to go get. You think the gov will have the ability to go after lawful gun owners also?

When you join the NRA immediately they sell your email address and you get a ton of spam. They sell all your personal information to insurance companies. The NRA has already sold everyone of us out as far hiding your membership.

 

[joeschmoe]

It's interesting that the extremists on both sides have the same fantasy. The extreme draconian anti's and the tin foil Alex Jones crowd both think Obama is going to confiscate guns. Usually by EO.

Both seem disappointed it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Torian]

All I know is that when Joeschmoe drops in on a thread, and disagrees with someone, sooner or later that someone will be labeled as wearing a "tin foil" hat.

 

[CmdrSlander]

It's interesting that the extremists on both sides have the same fantasy. The extreme draconian anti's and the tin foil Alex Jones crowd both think Obama is going to confiscate guns. Usually by EO.

Both seem disappointed it hasn't happened yet.

I'd like to note that I'm not fantasizing, I'm pointing out that we are not as safe from confiscation as we may think and need to remain vigilant.

 

[CmdrSlander]

When you join the NRA immediately they sell your email address and you get a ton of spam. They sell all your personal information to insurance companies. The NRA has already sold everyone of us out as far hiding your membership.

They're a great whipping boy for the anti-gunners though. I'd rather they attack the big bad NRA which has the clout and the money to fight them than go after the smaller, but more nimble and effective groups like the Cato Institute and SAF.

 

[oneounceload]

Serial numbers, no, but they could easily build a profile of an MSR owner and use 4473s, online purchase history to figure out who has them and how many they have.

Not really - if you have bought guns in private sales, this argument disappears, just like the tin foil hats

 

[CmdrSlander]

Not really - if you have bought guns in private sales, this argument disappears, just like the tin foil hats

Correct, but many, probably most MSRs are on their first owner, especially given the recent panic. I never said they could get them all.

As for the tin foil remark: This is speculation, the moral of the story is:

...in the modern age, the government knows or could easily find out all there is to know about you. We must elect a government that either will not or cannot abuse this information.

Not "ALERT ALERT ALERT the're comin for the gunz!"

 

[joeschmoe]

All I know is that when Joeschmoe drops in on a thread, and disagrees with someone, sooner or later that someone will be labeled as wearing a "tin foil" hat.

If the hat fits...

 

[joeschmoe]

Vigilant? Sure. Speculating about confiscation and assumptions about who might resist and how the government can get us? Silly.

 

[Akita1]

Torian - what about your FFL's log book and every 4473 you've filled out (re: serial number and make/model of firearm)?

 

[Trung Si]

There is also the problem of that pesky 2nd Amendment. But there is the practical problem of how do you confiscate 300 million guns from 100 million armed citizens who know their rights? You can't. Fantasy.

It's Impossible, even for our mighty Federal Government and they know it!

 

[Anmut]

Very true. When they decide to use these actions for confiscation or "SWAT'ing" then we will have our generation's Ruby Ridge.

I don't believe that they would do that though. Obama's team is really good at using the media and back door policies to get exactly what they want.

 

[Akita1]

It's Impossible, even for our mighty Federal Government and they know it!

My grandfather used to tell stories about rounding up American citizens on the West Coast in the early 40's - we can make all the tin foil jokes we want, but just because something appears impossible doesn't mean it escapes intent.

 

[Torian]

Torian - what about your FFL's log book and every 4473 you've filled out (re: serial number and make/model of firearm)?

That doesn't exist in a electronic federal database. No one is debating that there isn't a paper trail out there for such purchases. That is a far cry from a nationwide government run registry.

The difference between the two is accessibility and probable cause (just put my tinfoil hat on since Joeschmoe is prepping his response).

If such a federal database was created, not only would all paper records (ordinarily retained at the FFL) be housed under one electronic roof, but I would bet all the monopoly money I own that the standards for access to it would also be eased.

 

[joeschmoe]

(just put my tinfoil hat on since Joeschmoe is prepping his response)