Face It, There's Already a Gun Owner Registry

[browningguy]

Actually, they can be tracking your every move on the internet just because you frequent this forum if they want to. The .gov has the technology, and the will, to do just about anything they want.

To me it's not about dems vs. republicans, both are equally as bad and Bush Jr. probably did more to shred the constitution than any Democrat in recent history.

 

[Rob G]

What proof do they have that I didn't sell all of them in private transactions? For that matter, what proof would I be required to keep if I had done such a thing? They can speculate all they want but there is no solid proof that I currently own a single firearm.

And of course let's not forget all those poor souls out there that are victims of tragic boating accidents...

 

[rcmodel]

SO, you mean to say my MSR's were not lost in a tragic boating accident in the 1970's & 80's??

And my standard capacity 30-round M-16 magazines I have bought from old GI's through the years at garage sales are regestered somewhere??

Even my copy of the 4473 for my first AR-15 is so old the ink has faded out to be unreadable.

If the ATF somehow got hold of it today, it would take Gil Grisom to figure out how to read it.
And even then, all it says is, I bought a 'rifle' of some sort in 1970 something.

You best study the tin-foil hat instructions posted above.

rc

 

[Ignition Override]

Face-to-face (FTF) sales must be getting much more popular nowadays, while they are still allowed?

If nothing else, you/they see the gun. Cash is king.
No need for just hoping to spot it at a gun show.
The way things are going, or will be one day, FTF deals will seem like a nostalgic, pleasant dream.

The good old days are almost at an end, partly due to the indifference or complacency of many pro-gun people.

 

[joeschmoe]

The guy I sold all my guns to died in a tragic boating accident.

 

[kwguy]

My point is, in the modern age, the government knows or could easily find out all there is to know about you. We must elect a government that either will not or cannot abuse this information.

That is very true. Sure, it may not be a 'registry' per se, but there is certainly enough information out there, and if someone has the resources, it certainly is accessible.

 

[Vector]

If the Federal Government really wanted to come after everyone that owns a modern sporting rifle or standard capacity magazine, the information needed to do so is only a few subpoenas away.

One could get most of the Modern Sporting Rifles, or at least most of the ones that are in the hands of people likely to resist a Federal confiscation, by cross referencing/pooling:

-List of NRA members (the NRA has it somewhere - subpoena), pro gun activists like us are likely to own the guns currently targeted and are likely to be non-compliant.
-People with Concealed Carry Permits (state database), if you've jumped through the hoops to get a CWP/CCL you probably like guns, and if you like guns you probably own an MSR or banned magazine.
-People with registered NFA items (existing Federal database), if you own an NFA item you are probably invested in the shooting sports to the point that you own something they want to make illegal.
-Online gun retailer purchase histories (Buds, Midway, Brownells - subpoena), it wouldn't be hard to check these for recent purchases of Modern Sporting Rifles, MSR accessories, mags and other items.

Pool these four existing electronic database and you'd have the vital information of about 85-90% of Modern Sporting Rifle owners. There may not be a formal registry, but it wouldn't be hard to find all the personal information needed to raid gun owners using existing databases.

We still need to fight a formal registry on all levels, but my point is, if it ever gets as far as confiscation, don't think that not having any weapons registered will save you from getting raided/searched. We have to defeat this before that happens.

Edit to Add: My point is, in the modern age, the government knows or could easily find out all there is to know about you. We must elect a government that either will not or cannot abuse this information.

While I see your point, there is a vast difference between the government trying to get hold of a NRA membership list vs. having a national registration of specifically which guns are located where.
For instance there are actually NRA members who have never owned, nor will own a gun. Regardless if the government ever tried to do such a thing, there would be such a stink that they would be forced to back off. Also as an FYI, some people are registered members under fake names. There would be no way to prove they had guns, and unless the government is going to throw out the Constitution to be able to break into houses with warrantless searches for suspected guns, it would not last long.

`

 

[Twiki357]

Vector: "unless the government is going to throw out the Constitution to be able to break into houses with warrantless searches for suspected guns, it would not last long."

They already did. It's called the Homeland Security Act and it's Sneak and Peak authority!

And don't forget the computerized medical records question about guns in the home for anyone gullible enough to answer yes.

 

[Torian]

I don't care who you are that's funny.

 

[Akita1]

I don't care who you are that's funny.

Echo that!

 

[Akita1]

That doesn't exist in a electronic federal database. No one is debating that there isn't a paper trail out there for such purchases. That is a far cry from a nationwide government run registry.

The difference between the two is accessibility and probable cause (just put my tinfoil hat on since Joeschmoe is prepping his response).

If such a federal database was created, not only would all paper records (ordinarily retained at the FFL) be housed under one electronic roof, but I would bet all the monopoly money I own that the standards for access to it would also be eased.

Roger that. Thinking there is at least a Federal record of the phone call made, or now computerized at my LGS. FL Dept of law Enforcement uses FBI national crime database and I am told (no direct experience here) that each time it is searched with your name, SSN, etc. that a "purpose" is logged for firearms purchase. We just love that boat accident joke...

Regarding my NFA trust however, Federal records run deep!

 

[hso]

Ignoring the laws that make collecting some of this information illegal, the difficulty in acquiring 4473s and compiling the information from the bound books, the fact that subpoenaing membership records from organizations isn't as easy as clicking a pair of jack boots together, the hysterical hyperbole of claiming something exists that simply doesn't and that would be fought more vigorously than any currently proposed Anti legislation is absurd.

 

[itsa pain]

I would like to do some extensive background checks on anyone who wields power in this country you would find tens of thousands of pedophiles drunks drug addicts rapists blackmailers etc and that includes local police

 

[zxcvbob]

The numbers of prohibited possessors with a known weapon are huge. These are people that the police know about but don't have the time or ability to go get. You think the gov will have the ability to go after lawful gun owners also?

They are MORE likely to go after lawful gun owners. Make examples of a few and the rest will cave.

I still think the probability is pretty low, although some of the STATE governments lately (NY, CO, CT) are acting like they want to start their own little civil wars.

 

[bikerdoc]

There is no defacto registry and the legalities of the actions you propose are not going to happen.

 

[Geno]

If .gov ever wants to know what we have, all they have to do is pass a law requiring us to register the next time we renew our driver's license or pay our taxes. That would meet fierce resistance, as in "Nope, not gonna do it". Hades on high, .gov has told us, generation-after-generation, that we have to drive 25 in town, 55 in main roads and 70 on most freeways. Look how many people obey those! I'm not worried about registrations, by legal mandates or by other means. It isn't that it could not happen, rather I see the probability as very low, and lawful resistance to said same as very high.

Improbable, and any means other than by legal mandate, highly unmanageable.

Geno

 

[Elkins45]

There are probably a dozen government agencies that know I own guns. There may even be a couple who know the full name and address of "Elkins45" (hint: my last name is Elkins).

I can say with 99.9% certainty that none of them know exactly which guns I own---I don't even know that myself!

 

[leadcounsel]

Problem with registry is being in violation for failing to register. Imagine the hassle....

 

[razorback2003]

The fed govt can't even keep track of the massive fraud involved with EBT, food stamps, Section 8, Medicaid, Medicare, SS, and disability. Add in the Earned Income Credit fraud that goes on and people claiming dependents on tax returns that are not dependents.

These are all folks that are 'registered' with these programs to receive benefits.

I don't think the govt can truly know what firearms you have because you can buy guns from private individuals. Just because you have a CHL does not mean you own a gun, just like having a driver license does not mean you own a car. The only guns that are truly 'registered' in most states are NFA items and even the NFA registry has problems. If the govt wanted to outlaw NFA items, then they would have to pay people compensation for those. Our gov is broke.

The only way the gov would be able to find out what people truly owned is to get search warrants, but that can't be done unless there is proof of a crime. Our whole Constitution would have be trashed to allow that to happen and at that point we would have a whole different form of gov and not the present USA.

Know your rights and do not allow anyone in your house/property without a warrant. Know an attorney and if someone does try to show up, call your attorney.

 

[22-rimfire]

Canada's registry lasted until last year (1998-2012) at a very high cost for Canada. The US version was estamted at 67 billion for 13 years or the length of time the Canda registry was in force. That does not count other use of law enforcement for complaince. That is simply the registry. Big waste of money.

 

[SilentStalker]

This would not fly in my state. Yes, it could be on record somewhere even though most of my stuff was bought from individuals. If it was its pretty easy to circumvent any records they may have. All you have to do is simply tell them that you sold it to a friend of yours. In my state there is no required record keeping so its very easy to get around the fact that they may know you acquired a specific type of firearm. Canada led their government on a good chase for years, to the point where it became too expensive to keep track off, hence the reason it was recently done away with. What I cannot understand is why we are even trying this considering how many countries have tried and failed. Don't get me wrong some have succeeded but Canada is a good example of why we should not even be wasting taxpayers money on such trivial pursuits. Thats exactly what this is, a waste of resources and money IMO.

 

[22-rimfire]

But what happens when you shoot or are observed using a unregistred firearm?

 

[SilentStalker]

And there sir will be the problem. I have already point this out many times and nobody has given me a good answer yet. To me, at that point in time, you will have to make a very hard decision. Personally, I have never been one to not put up a fight so take that as you will. I hope that many others would join me. Individually we are weak, but together we are strong. Sound familiar?

 

[Onward Allusion]

You over-estimate our government's IT talent. The really good ones are working for the alphabet soup and are devoted to bigger things than the average Joe/Jane and their personal firearms used for sporting or defensive purposes. Of course, I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, just not in the next decade unless we let it happen.

As an aside, some of you guys really should go back and re-read your older posts. I am not usually not one to use the tinfoil phrase, but dang...

 

[InkEd]

I think if it came down to the federal government trying to confiscate people's firearms, a lot of retailers, organizations and even some state governments would destroy a lot of their various records.