Factors for Percussion Pistol Accuracy?

[Steve Swartz]

Gurus:

I've had my underhammer Carleton in .36 for a few months now and have experimented a bit with it. Shooting international precision targets at 25 meters, and looking for match-level precision.

Have experimented with:
- Patches (type, thickness)
- Lube (tallow/beeswax vs. T1000+)
- Bullets (pedersoli cast .354 vs Hornady swaged .350)
- Charge (11 gr - 15 gr)

Remington #10 caps throughout. Pedersoli recommends .354 ball, 0.007 patch, and 12 grains.

Now I need some feedback!

1. Are there any factors I am leaving out that could be significant?
2. Am I wasting my time playing around with the things I am changing?
3. What, in your opinion, are the most important-least important things to "set right" for a percussion rifled pistol like this one?

My current experience has been that I will see (out of a ten shot string) 3-4 shots in a cloverleaf; 3-4 shots in a cloverleaf an inch or so away; and 2-3 shots off to the left about 2 inches away from the main group(s) and 2-3 inches apart vertically (but on average the same height as the main groups).

Comments?

Help!

Steve in Texas

 

[arcticap]

You know that there could be a slew of factors that could affect accuracy.
Here's a few ideas to think about:

1. Patch lube - there's so many different ones that maybe experimenting with a more liquid based lube might give you an additional comparison.
There's Lehigh Valley, Hoppe's, Jojaba, mink..... for instance Hoppe's claims to not interfere with ignition.

http://www.octobercountry.com/search.php?phrase=patch+lube&searchtype=standardsearch

2. Powder - some will produce less deviation and fouling than others.
Is Swiss actually cleaner & better due to more consistent granulation and superior composition?

3. Wads - trying Wonder Wad wool bore buttons under the patched ball might help to produce more consistent velocities with less deviation and improve accuracy.

4. Loading - top rifle shooters use powder drop tubes so the powder load drops right down into the barrel breech intact.

Even barrel temperature can affect trajectory.

Have you ever noticed if you're canting the pistol while aiming? There's so many different pistol shooting techniques/skills involved that every competitive pistol shooter must consider learning, studying and being aware of: stance, grip, trigger isolation, form etc...

Every pistol is going to be limited by the length of the sighting plan, and technical sighting and other shooter method errors are virtually impossible to eliminate entirely. For instance, in the entire history of Olympic style International Air Pistol competition, there has never been a perfect score recorded for a 60 shot match. So, just try to discover the optimum loading for your gun and shoot it to the best of your ability, while still having fun!

 

[Plink]

Steve, a couple things I've picked up along the way that have helped my accuracy are first off, wads. A lubed wad helps protect the patch, it seals gasses for more consistant pressure and it seems to delay ball movement slightly and allows powder to ignite more consistently.

The other thing I've picked up is using Ballistol and water as a lube. It's mixed 5-10 parts water to 1 part Ballistol and allowed to dry. You'll need to tinker with the ratio to find out what your particular gun likes. All of mine seem to like 5/1-7/1. Allowing it to dry before shooting lets the water evaporate away, leaving just the right amount of Ballistol. Exactly the same amount on each patch. It would be hard to get the patch treated evenly without the water, as a little Ballistol goes a long way! The dry patch also helps keep the ball in place during the early stages of ignition. The Ballistol on the patch does a good job of cleaning the bore too, though you'll still need to swab.

You might give these a try. Perhaps one at a time to see if it offers you any benefit. For wad lube, I just use the same Ballistol solution that I use for patches in that particular gun.

I think the single most important aspect to accuracy in a muzzleloader is loading consistency. Exactly the same amount of powder, exactly the same amount of lube on each patch, balls exactly the same size and weight, bore fouled exactly the same amount for each shot (swab!), and exactly the same amount of pressure when tamping your load.

Those shots to the left sound like they might be technique related. Try shooting from a rest to see if your groupings are gun related or perhaps shooter related. I know when I have an off day, I always end up blaming the gun, when the problem is really me and I don't always notice that.

 

[pascalp]

With the results you claim, best advice is practice.
Stop experimenting, stay on a recipe that you fill good, for a while.
Try to be consistent both for reloading and shooting.
25m is not a wild range, unless you have got a lemon you could have same accuracy than from a centerfire, even better as you have the radius sight and maybe the light trigger of an air pistol.

 

[Steve Swartz]

Thanks All!

- The issue of "nut behind trigger" (technique) is spot on and always the first place I look for deviations . . . especially when "flyers" happen . . . but these flyers occur when I have perfect sight alignment in the wobble zone and trigger is released subconsciously with consistent grip . . .

- I will investigate the "liquid" (vs. "wax") lube issue. It is very difficult to get consistent lube using a melted medium, dip and dry process. Thanks for the leads for liquid products; have picked up some Ballistol and will give the Ballistol/water (soak and dry) idea a try.

- Have purchased some Wonder Wads and will try that. With low charge weights and an underhammer design, I noted on the patches that there is a little burnt hole at the edge of the bullet seating band . . . presume this is from percussion cap scorching a hole in the patch? That would indeed result in some inconsistencies and wads would help.

- I have a home-made drop tube and will start using it.

- I ordered a buttload more swabs and will brush-patch-swab after every round. I actually did that for a while just starting out but it got tedious and I figured a quick brush-patch would be good enough? Maybe not.

- I actually have some Swiss; currently using some 3-year old Goex . . . I have new Goex and new Swiss but wanted to use up my old stuff first . . . am I being stupid or what?

More comments welcome.

I'm not new to shooting, but am definitely a tyro/newbie to this black powder stuff- would appreciate any and all advice and help!

THANKS!

Steve in Texas

 

[arcticap]

This may not sound directly related to BP pistol shooting, but there's a lot of transferrable skills between pistol disciplines.

There's an outfit that caters mostly to competitive airgun shooters named Pilkington Guns . Their website is: http://pilkguns.com/

There's a link under the Coaching & Info. tab to a shooter's forum named: http://www.targettalk.org/

There's a bunch of transferrable pistol shooting info. to dig up, particularly in the pistol shooting forum.

Also check out the archives link located at the top of the targettalk home page: http://www.pilkguns.com/archindx.htm

There should be some useful information to be found under "Shooting Techniques".

BTW, shooting an air pistol for practice at home whenever one has the urge can help any pistol shooter to stay sharp and tuned up. It's a practical, economical and fun way for anyone to develop & hone their pistol shooting skills, especially when the weather or time doesn't permit outdoor range practice. The more a person squeezes a trigger and shoots a gun the better!

 

[4v50 Gary]

Consistency

Make sure your bullets weigh the same. In fact, separate them by weights before you lube them and box them separately (or at least mark you box such that you can identify them by weights.

Create a log book as you would a rifle. Fire five shot groups and note difference between patch thickness and bullet weight. Try only one change per group. Thus, if you change lubes, be sure to fire a string. Also take note of temperature, humidity, sunlight (overcast), wind.

The key to finding how accurate the pistol can be is consistency. The rest is up to the shooter.

 

[Steve Swartz]

More help needed!

I already

1) weigh and sort bullets (will begin casting my own next week) and will weigh and sort the homemade cast bullets . . . will probably be asking for bullet casting help shortly!
3) wonder about measuring diameter uniformity? How? And how critical?
2) will adopt ballistol soaked (and dried) patches and wads ASAP
3) have a drop tube and will use from here on out

but in response to a comment on another web forum, investigated the "contours" of the barrel/combusiton chamber of my gun and found some interesting things that may have had an effect on my consistency:

I have 9" of barrel (around.361"), then a narrower cylinder of around 0.275" that is 0.775" deep, followed by an even narrower cylinder of maybe 0.175" by 0.215" deep. The actual "flash hole" (?) where the hot gasses from the cap contact the powder is located somewhere in that last 0.215" inches. This is an underhammer design, so the cap gasses enter that last narrow area from below.

Son of a . . . ?!?!

O.K., so how do I maintain a clean (or at least uniform) combustion chambner between shots? I am kind of concluding that my routine of brush, swab-with-patch-on-slotted-jag, then load may have not been the best idea . . . as my brushing and swabbing only cleaned the "upper" portion of the barrel and may have resulted in crap being poked down into the combustion chamber (not good for uniformity).

Anyhow

Now what?

I already plan to 1) buy an actual patch jag designed for .36 cal round ball that I can use to both run fitted cleaning patches after shooting, and seat a ball properly; and

2) snap a cap between each shot? Blow compressed air through the nipple between each shot? run a .22 or .17 swab down into the combustion chambers between each shot? Run a nipple pick into the nipple between shots? All of the above? What?

Please remember that I am trying to prepare for "international style" competition shooting, with time limits and a focus on very small, consistent groups . . .

More help needed! Please remember I am new to blackpowder shooting and will overlook the "obvious" so please don't leave any "obvious" advice out!

Steve Swartz

 

[arcticap]

It sounds like you found the powder chamber and you don't like it's dimensions. It's size might actually help to keep it clear.
I usually use undersized Kleen-bore cleaning jags and home cut cleaning patches for barrel cleaning, which shouldn't push anything significant into a large chamber. But if you think it does, then inserting a small pointed jag/scraper into the chamber could help insure that the chamber is fully open. If it had flat sides and was smaller than the chamber, it could be manipulated to help scrape the chamber walls without pushing residue in. I'm not recommending it, but maybe it could be worthwhile insurance after an "X" number of shots if adequately fitted & tested. But I wouldn't use any mop in there or metal brush that's not stiff enough to pull residue out, or which may actually push some in.

Why nipple pick between shots? Why not visually check the nipple opening just before capping, and pick it only if necessary or after an "X" number of shots? You want to concentrate on shooting, and a loading procedure with too many unnecessary steps may detract from your concentration.
I wouldn't unnecessarily force air or CO2 into the nipple just in case there were unintended consequences from doing it. Doing that might introduce excess moisture into a warm barrel or change it's temperature.
Personally, I'd be more interested in learning if there was a "shot to shot" barrel temperature that promoted better accuracy, and that could be methodically controlled through the amount of time the shooter took to load & aim between shots, so that the barrel temperature remained more constant.
You're aware that many competitive pistol shooters contour their grips to better fit their hand and to help them minimize shooting errors. Some use epoxy like grip paste to create a more ergonomic grip, or adhere fine gravel, ground glass, skateboard (or stairway) tape to make a more abrasive surface to grip onto.
Since it's physically impossible to hold a muzzle absolutely steady, the majority of effort needs to be concentrated on minimizing muzzle movement while squeezing the trigger. To control muzzle movement when squeezing the trigger, focus on keeping the front sight as steady as possible. As the saying goes, "If it was easy, it wouldn't be fun!"

 

[Steve Swartz]

Arcticap (and all):

- It's not that I like/dislike the chamber contours . . . I'm just "concerned" that my between shot regimen of brushing, swabbing, flossing, rinsing, etc. might be doing more harm than good by potentially pushing some partially burned powder etc. into the narrow chamber at end of barrel- and perhaps even down into the underhammer/nipple area.

- Right now I see two main options: a) cleaning the powder chamber etc. thoroughly between shots; or b) not doing any barrel cleaning at all between shots. I'm looking for (of course) the "best" answer . . . I want a clean barrel (and powder chamber) for reliable, consistent ignition and minimal shot-shot variance in both combustion and bullet travel/spin up down barrel. Perhaps a modified routine? Brush, patch with jag, swab, fire cap on empty chamber, then load?

- My objective is to set up the "mechanical conditions" for 15 or so "perfect" shots. Of course, the most important issues are the human factors but I want the shot to fall where I put it, not where some random piece of crud put it . . .

- I'm not sure if the rules for international competition allow a lot of grip modification. The "replica" arms need to adhere to the technology of the era represented (1850 for me). Glass bedding is not allowed. Sights must be "historically accurate" (i.e. V or Round notch; ball or pointed front post; etc.) and this limits modification.

- Yes, I am working on my technique right now as well. My main problem (at the moment) is that the typical 1850 era grip was not very ergonomically compliant with an adult male circa 2007 . . . the danged grip is tiny and my trigger finger engages the trigger at the first joint among other problems.

Thanks so much for the continuing dialog and ideas!

Steve in Texas

 

[arcticap]

The pointed tip of a small jag with the cleaning patch bunched up around it should just slightly enter the top of the powder chamber. To help to polish the chamber lip at this juncture where the ball is seated, try spinning the cleaning rod with your fingers as you move it up & down. You're not using so much powder that residue will easily clog the chamber, and residue mostly gets blown outward toward the muzzle anyway. If you are that concerned about particles falling into the flash channel during swabbing, I guess that you could always swab the barrel with the gun being held muzzle down or sideways. But the underhammer's strong ignition should make using that unorthodox method unnecessary.
After you fire enough satisfactory test loads while simulating the match course of fire, then maybe you'll feel more confident in the pistol's performance and the loading/swabbing regimen that you'll eventually chose to use for actual competition.

 

[Plink]

Steve, I wouldn't worry too much about the powder chamber during shooting, unless you encounter issues like misfires. The bore is your main concern for accuracy. If a little fouling gets pushed into the chamber, it probably won't cause any problems and you can clean it out when you clean the gun for the day. Most of my guns have a patent breech like that and I don't worry about it during shooting. Of course I'm not shooting underhammers, so I'm not aware of any of their peculiarities. Good luck and I hope you find the solution you're looking for.

 

[Steve499]

Some of the 1000 yard muzzleloading rifle match participants will drop tube their powder into the breech, then run a card wad down on top of the powder with a rod which has a wet cleaning patch on it. The fouling scraped onto the powder is dry fouling, mostly, and is discharged with the next shot. The bore gets a swabbing and any wet fouling stays in front of the card wad. There are almost as many techniques as there are shooters, it seems, but that method doesn't push wet fouling into the flash channel which can happen when wet patching an empty barrel.

Of course, all of those folks are shooting long bullets which are loaded under bore size and bump up upon firing, and most use a wad of some sort between the powder and bullet anyway so seating a card wad is a step they need to do at some point. They spend less loading time with that method than if they cleaned an empty barrel between each shot, plus they have a semi-clean and uniform bore for the next shot.


Steve