Factory 357 bulged cases

[Mr_Flintstone]

I have shot a couple boxes of Federal 158 gr JSP from my S&W Model 19 and Henry rifle.


What I see when I gather the brass to reload is that the cases are slightly bulged just above the web.



The trouble I have is that when I run them through my resizing die, it makes a ring right at the top of the web that causes them to get stuck in my Model 19. It doesn't seem to affect the Henry. Is this amount of case expansion out of the ordinary? Could there be something wrong with my dies that don't resize all the way down onto the web?

 

[Blue68f100]

You may want to check your chamber for out of spec. Henry Rifles have one of the best warranties in the industries. If you have a way to make a cast of your chamber would be the best way to check it. It may be that area is unsupported. Contact Henry Rifles and send them the photo and see what they say.

 

[243winxb]

Brass should not be mixed between firearm. Each should have there own.

The part of the case that does not get sized by the die, may be to large in diameter. The Henry's chamber would seem to be larger then the M19?

Is the sizing die almost contacting the shell holder? It should be.

Measure fired brass, compare to SAAMI specifications.

Some factory ammo may be on the hot side, expanding till its stopped by the chambers.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Factory ammo fired from both guns do this; the Henry may be a little worse. I just looked this ammo up, and they advertise 1240 fps from a 4" vented barrel. That's pretty hot; pretty much a max load or beyond based on my reloading manuals. My hand loaded ammo with Starline brass and H4227 don't do this even with max loads.

 

[reddog81]

Brass should not be mixed between firearm. Each should have there own.

Assuming the ammo and firearms are SAAMI spec that shouldn't be necessary and would be a giant pain for people with more than 3 guns in a caliber. I have a dozen plus .38/.357 firearms and the only one that causes problems is a Colt from the 20's with tight chambers. Any other problems I've ran into can be corrected with proper adjustment of the reloading dies.

 

[243winxb]

Is fired brass diameter larger rhen .385"

 

[243winxb]

SAAMI spec

Look at the tolerance. (an allowable amount of variation of a specified quantity, especially in the dimensions of a machine or part.)

Chamber- .3809" +.004" tolerance.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

OK, I just got home and measured the unfired brass, brass fired in the Henry, and the brass fired in the Model 19. Both the rifle fired and revolver fired brass measured .379”-.380” at the widest point. The rifle brass had a sharper bulge at the web though. The unfired brass measured .371”. That confuses me though, because the SAAMI diagrams show unfired brass at .379”.

 

[243winxb]

The unfired brass measured .371”

Saami minimum is .373" Close enough.

The next thing to check is sizing by the die. Is it sizing down far enough? I don't know of any standard of measurement for it. But it is limited by the shell holder and how much bevel is on the die mouth.


I measured mine. From case head to where die stops sizing is about .220" (unsized). My old 1973 die does not have as much bevel as new dies for progressive loaders.
The shell holder keeps the carbide die from sizing all of the brass. The area from the case head to where sizing stops is about .220" when using my old 1973 Rcbs Carbide die. Never cam over or let the carbide ring contact the shell holder "HARD"

 

[Walkalong]

May be an optical illusion, but the case head looks out of square on the bottom pic.

That bulge isn't unusual, and worse in some chambers than others. The carbide ring will not get below the bulge from the case expanding to meet the chamber, so if you don't run it quite so far down the point they meet it won't leave a sharp ridge.

 

[1KPerDay]

Yeah that one pic makes the base look off kilter. Like the bolt face isn't square or something. Probably the pic.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Saami minimum is .373" Close enough.

The next thing to check is sizing by the die. Is it sizing down far enough? I don't know of any standard of measurement for it. But it is limited by the shell holder and how much bevel is on the die mouth.
View attachment 790870

I measured mine. From case head to where die stops sizing is about .220" (unsized). My old 1973 die does not have as much bevel as new dies for progressive loaders.
The shell holder keeps the carbide die from sizing all of the brass. The area from the case head to where sizing stops is about .220" when using my old 1973 Rcbs Carbide die. Never cam over or let the carbide ring contact the shell holder "HARD"

My Lee die has a pretty big bevel. It sizes down to about .230.

May be an optical illusion, but the case head looks out of square on the bottom pic.

That bulge isn't unusual, and worse in some chambers than others. The carbide ring will not get below the bulge from the case expanding to meet the chamber, so if you don't run it quite so far down the point they meet it won't leave a sharp ridge.

Yeah that one pic makes the base look off kilter. Like the bolt face isn't square or something. Probably the pic.

It’s an optical illusion caused by the way I was holding my phone. I looked at the case heads after I posted the pic, and they were square.


To be honest, I don’t shoot that much .357 out of my Model 19. Generally .357 is too loud. I practice with .357 loaded to .38 +P, and keep it loaded with .38 Special +P in my night stand. Since the bulge doesn’t seem to bother the Henry, I’ll probably just use this brass fro my rifle loads.

 

[JohnB-40]

I noticed on my 357 carbine, Magtech rounds do it to small degree,just a shiny mark in the same place as yours,but with no perceivable dimension change. The Black Hills casings have no marks what ever. Magtech use CBC (Brazil) cases and Black Hills uses Starline....... Maybe the cases are culprit?

 

[243winxb]

If fired brass, not sized, will go back into the chambers of both gun, then it may be a die problem?

If brass will not go right back into the chamber it came out of, its a high pressure problem?

Thats about all the guesses i have.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

If fired brass, not sized, will go back into the chambers of both gun, then it may be a die problem?

If brass will not go right back into the chamber it came out of, its a high ptessure problen?

Thats about all the guesses i have.

On my Model 19, freshly fired Federal factory rounds stick in cylinder chambers. They will come out, but I have to hit the case ejector rod with my palm to unseat them.

 

[243winxb]

Sticking is a sign that maximum pressure has been reached.

Read post 25 here, first few lines. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=595837

As the old story goes, old M19's should not have a steady diet of hot 357 mags.

 

[Walkalong]

Generally .357 is too loud.

You are wearing ear protection, correct? If not, please get some. If so, you may need a better pair of muffs or plugs under muffs. Or both. Cheap muffs are worthless.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

You are wearing ear protection, correct? If not, please get some. If so, you may need a better pair of muffs or plugs under muffs. Or both. Cheap muffs are worthless.

Yep. Plugs aren’t that great with these. I’ve been wearing muffs, but they block so much sound I feel like I’m walking around on the moon. I was referring to if/when I ever had to fire one off in my bedroom. I’m sure in a small room with no hearing protection that a 357 would cause hearing loss. 38 is loud enough, but it doesn’t have quite the crack of the 357.

 

[beag_nut]

Brass should not be mixed between firearm. Each should have there own.

The part of the case that does not get sized by the die, may be to large in diameter. The Henry's chamber would seem to be larger then the M19?

Is the sizing die almost contacting the shell holder? It should be.

Measure fired brass, compare to SAAMI specifications.

Some factory ammo may be on the hot side, expanding till its stopped by the chambers.

I mix my ammo (.357's) between four different firearms, both revolvers and rifle (including a Henry). Never a problem like this one described. I suggest a chamber is seriously oversize somewhere.

 

[JohnB-40]

I mix my ammo (.357's) between four different firearms, both revolvers and rifle (including a Henry). Never a problem like this one described. I suggest a chamber is seriously oversize somewhere.

They do look like cases from an Lee Enfield with an O/S chamber or excessive head space. The case separates at that point too.

 

[243winxb]

That bulge isn't unusual, and worse in some chambers than others. The carbide ring will not get below the bulge from the case expanding to meet the chamber, so if you don't run it quite so far down the point they meet it won't leave a sharp ridge.

Walkalong makes a good point.

RCBS has said- you only need to size enough ,so the case will fit back into the chamber. Think neck sizing, but with a pistol case.
The sizing can be just below where the bullet base stops or a little more.

For this to work,

Brass should not be mixed between firearm. Each should have there own.

 

[stringnut]

Several good points have been made. Separate a few brass from the Model 19 and size them. See if they also stick, or, is it just the brass from the rifle. Sounds like a tolerance issue somewhere. If the resized handgun brass chambers ok then the rifle chamber is likely at maximum spec. Not a bad thing. That's what a spec is a range it can be in. If none of the brass chambers easily then the cylinders could be tight , or, the die may not size it down enough. Brass springs back some after it is run through the sizing die. If it starts out larger it remains larger. Not by much. May only be .001 or .002 ,but, enough to make a difference. It can drive you crazy figuring out which piece is to large or to small to work. The really crazy part is it can all be in spec and still not be quite right. You may have to separate brass or try different dies.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep. Plugs aren’t that great with these. I’ve been wearing muffs, but they block so much sound I feel like I’m walking around on the moon.

Plugs that don't work well will cause hearing loss over time. Heed the older shooters here and take your hearing more seriously. I now war muffs while mowing, and wish I had all my life. Oh but if I could go back and do it again.

I was referring to if/when I ever had to fire one off in my bedroom. I’m sure in a small room with no hearing protection that a 357 would cause hearing loss. 38 is loud enough, but it doesn’t have quite the crack of the 357.

.38 Spl will cause haring loss as well. Sure, I would rather shoot a .38 Spl inside with no hearing protection, but it still causes damage, just like not enough heating protection does.

 

[Catpop]

I had same problem with 1973 RUGER BH. I started a thread here on it within last two years “wasp cases” name I think.
It seems to get worse with future reloadings. I did buy an old die and pushed the cases all the way to the rim ( no shell holder), then removed with a special punch through inside of case. This was to salvage the case. Little time consuming and I still have fifty or so in a jar to do as we speak (haven’t done one in a year)

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Just an update. I made up some 140 gr XTP in new Armscor brass over 18 gr IMR-4227 (that’s the max load at Hodgdon). They didn’t bulge as much, and didn’t make a ring. I’m thinking the Federal is really hot.