factory accuracy vs handload accuracy and velocity.

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Axis II

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This has me wondering. I shot my reloads last night and got very good accuracy with about 3k per second and shot factory and get the same accuracy but factory is like 3400fps. if I go any higher then the 3k fps with handloads the groups open up a lot.

Will the powder type from factory and handloads really make that much difference in accuracy with higher velocity?

Is there anything that can be done with the handloads to get to the factory velocity and still get the good accuracy? closer to lands, farther away from lands, etc?

I know everyone says just run with whats most accurate but I'm going to order turrets that are setup for 55gr 223rem bullets so I kind of need to be close to the factory velocity.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
This has me wondering. I shot my reloads last night and got very good accuracy with about 3k per second and shot factory and get the same accuracy but factory is like 3400fps. if I go any higher then the 3k fps with handloads the groups open up a lot.

Will the powder type from factory and handloads really make that much difference in accuracy with higher velocity?

Is there anything that can be done with the handloads to get to the factory velocity and still get the good accuracy? closer to lands, farther away from lands, etc?

I know everyone says just run with whats most accurate but I'm going to order turrets that are setup for 55gr 223rem bullets so I kind of need to be close to the factory velocity.
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The closest you're gonna get to 3400 is a Max load of benchmark. Even then, you're still gonna be a LITTLE shy. There are 2 points I'd like to address if I may....
Hornady uses a proprietary blend of their superformance powder for each cartridge, another member shared that information via hodgdon contact. The superformance powder you buy off the shelf is not the same. I have a friend who thought that the factory vmax loads were the bees knees too. Then we beat the accuracy with my handloads while giving up 300fps, never looked back!

When you say turrets for factory ammo, THE most common factory load is the fmj 55. Unless they specifically stated they're using vmax loads, you should check into the velocities of the fmj loads from several manufacturers (you can do this online) and compare the bc of your vmax vs the 55 fmj. I would bet that between factory numbers and your loads, there is not much difference. Whether or not there's a difference, you should still dope them out in the field and note results on a range card that you can take with you in the future. My friend found that his bdc was set up for 55fmj but my loads were SO close that even though velocities bc and weights were different, the difference in poi was non existent. At 300 yds, being off by 1-2" is hard to blame on any one thing, it could have simply been the most accurate he could shoot at that distance, and most varmints are still dead within those margins.
I do use target style turrets, but they aren't customized, they twist up or down 1/10th of a MIL or 1/4" day in and day out. Between modern ballistic apps and my own practice time, they still put the pills where I want them without hesitation.
 
dgod said:
If you are trying to duplicate a Commercial Load, I start by buying a box of the desired ammo, disassemble a round, weigh the Powder, try to match the weight to a listed reload weight (Multiple sources), weigh the Bullet (Consistency), Primer match (Usually colors of primers differ. At this point you have general startup data with which to start your workup.
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DO NOT TRY TO MATCH THE WEIGHT OF THE POWDER IN THE FACTORY CASE! THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POWDER THE MANUFACTURER USES.

Ammunition companies use blended powders to achieve a certain level of desired performance. They have elaborate testing procedures and devices for measuring pressure, burn rates, pressure curves, velocity, etc. It is irresponsible journalism when I read a article where the author disassembles a factory round and says something like "the powder has green flakes in it like Green Dot has."
 
I found Black Hills 55 gr FMJ (blue box remanufactured ammunition @ 3150 fps) to be more accurate than my reloads using 55 gr FMJ bullets.
 
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May I ask what you were using? How far up did you go? What caused you to stop where you did?
Accuracy looks like a Sine wave, with the most accurate node being the small part of the wave, then as it opens up it gets to the larger part of the wave. The trouble being, the cartridge becomes over pressured before it gets to the next smaller part of the wave. I am in no way encouraging overloading of a cartridge. Just my curiosity.

Cfe two two three and Blc-two are some slower powders if one has the barrel length to use them. But really it is all about timing the exit of the bullet with the wave harmonics.
 
Blue68f100 said:
You can get those velocities with TAC and a 24" barrel. So powder selection does play a role as to seating depth and land jump when it comes to accuracy. I pick accuracy any day over speed. As long as you know the ballistics you can compensate for any speed difference at distance.
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ill have to try that. right now ive got benchmark, h322 and h335 on hand. I don't have a chronograph so not sure how fast other than going by the hornady 9 manual saying 24.6gr with a 50gr v max is doing 3100 which is max. Hodgon says I can go to 26.5.(disclaimer-over book max do not use! THR AND Ohihunter2014 are not liable for this data) I went to 25gr with no issues. going up 2 tenths and see what happens but 25 was the breaking point from touching groups to 1-1.5moa.
 
Demi-human said:
May I ask what you were using? How far up did you go? What caused you to stop where you did?
Accuracy looks like a Sine wave, with the most accurate node being the small part of the wave, then as it opens up it gets to the larger part of the wave. The trouble being, the cartridge becomes over pressured before it gets to the next smaller part of the wave. I am in no way encouraging overloading of a cartridge. Just my curiosity.

Cfe two two three and Blc-two are some slower powders if one has the barrel length to use them. But really it is all about timing the exit of the bullet with the wave harmonics.
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savage axis 223 varmint contour barrel with 1-9 twist. short throat on rifle so im seating deeper then book max. I stopped at 25gr benchmark with 50gr v max with no issues with primers or bolt lift. went from hornay min-24.6gr all touching 5 shots and 25 was horrible I was lucky to keep them in the 1 inch square.
 
A chronograph would be immensely helpful. It can not tell one exact pressure, but one will need the velocity of a specific load if one desires to run a ballistic program on it. Seating deeper as well as touching the lands will increase the pressure as if one has added more powder. But as was said earlier, take one hole as opposed to a faster bullet.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
ill have to try that. right now ive got benchmark, h322 and h335 on hand. I don't have a chronograph ...
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I'm thinking it's time to invest in a chronograph. With perfectly serviceable units costing less than 100 bucks there's no excuse to reload without one. It's both a lot safer and might give you a chance of duplicating the factory ballistics. I'm not saying it's all it will take, but without it there's really no chance.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
ill have to try that. right now ive got benchmark, h322 and h335 on hand. I don't have a chronograph so not sure how fast other than going by the hornady 9 manual saying 24.6gr with a 50gr v max is doing 3100 which is max. Hodgon says I can go to 26.5.(disclaimer-over book max do not use! THR AND Ohihunter2014 are not liable for this data) I went to 25gr with no issues. going up 2 tenths and see what happens but 25 was the breaking point from touching groups to 1-1.5moa.
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I didn't realize you'd made the swap to 50 gr already and thought we were still talking 55 gr! 23 gr of h322 gets me right about 3135 with a 20" #4 barrel and great accuracy!
25.5 of benchmark should get you close to 3350 (nosler says 3400). Nosler lists min 24.5 max 26.5 accuracy at 25.5. With your charge weight of 24.6 with a 22" bbl my app suggests you should be very close to 3250.
 
horsey300 said:
I didn't realize you'd made the swap to 50 gr already and thought we were still talking 55 gr! 23 gr of h322 gets me right about 3135 with a 20" #4 barrel and great accuracy!
25.5 of benchmark should get you close to 3350 (nosler says 3400). Nosler lists min 24.5 max 26.5 accuracy at 25.5. With your charge weight of 24.6 with a 22" bbl my app suggests you should be very close to 3250.
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yeah I can get the Z max in bulk and cabelas has them for under $60-500rds so I figured give the 50's a try. accuracy is decent but I'm using Caldwell sand bags so its not rock solid but some days I get do very well with 55 and 50gr. I don't think ill go past 25.5. I don't like being close to max. 24gr I can cover with a nickel.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
yeah I can get the Z max in bulk and cabelas has them for under $60-500rds so I figured give the 50's a try. accuracy is decent but I'm using Caldwell sand bags so its not rock solid but some days I get do very well with 55 and 50gr. I don't think ill go past 25.5. I don't like being close to max. 24gr I can cover with a nickel.
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At 24 gr you should be running close to 3175 with a 22", hope that helps
 
Go and buy a chrono. You really have no idea what velocity you're actually achieving without one. Once I had a box of Hornady 40gr 22-250 that claimed something like 4100fps. Shot like a champ out of my gun, chrono reading 3850. All the bullet velocity in the world won't accomplish anything without the accuracy to put it on target.
 
I've learned not to get greedy on velocity, but its usually not hard to find both accuracy and velocity within 100-200 fps of factory loads in a .223 bolt action rifle by tweaking powder charge, powder type, and bullet seating depth.

ARs squeeze you more on the OAL due to the short magazines, so it tends to be more common to have to switch bullets to get the accuracy desired if the rifle does not like the first bullet tried. But at the end of the day, not every rifle will give optimum accuracy at top velocity. I just stick with the accuracy in those cases.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
savage axis 223 varmint contour barrel with 1-9 twist. short throat on rifle so im seating deeper then book max. I stopped at 25gr benchmark with 50gr v max with no issues with primers or bolt lift. went from hornay min-24.6gr all touching 5 shots and 25 was horrible I was lucky to keep them in the 1 inch square.
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I'm sorry but the words "in a 1" square and "horrible" just don't belong together.

I keep saying this in every thread you post, you bought a very inexpensive entry level rifle and got lucky to have gotten an unusually accurate rifle in that price point. I can't believe you think keeping 5 rounds inside a 1" square is horrible accuracy. I'm very confused by your expectations, it sounds like you are doing well but won't accept success.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I'm sorry but the words "in a 1" square and "horrible" just don't belong together.

I keep saying this in every thread you post, you bought a very inexpensive entry level rifle and got lucky to have gotten an unusually accurate rifle in that price point. I can't believe you think keeping 5 rounds inside a 1" square is horrible accuracy. I'm very confused by your expectations, it sounds like you are doing well but won't accept success.
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when i spoke with savage when the gun had to go back for a bad bolt face and ejector they said its the same barrel used on the higher end rifles just a different receiver and bolt so the barrel should shoot very well. IMO when i go from 5 all touching and sometimes sending them through the same hole to 1inch-1.5 inches at 100yards that bad IMO but you guys being more experienced might think otherwise. if the gun shot that from day one on a consistent basis id be happy but when i go from 5 shots covered with a nickel to 1-1.5 inch groups it shows something is off. When i shoot out or get tired of this rifle i might pickup a better savage.

the guns not the issue its the handloads. im very happy with the rifle. :)
 
Load manuals usually list a factory duplication load, however, the factory uses powders reloaders can't get. In any case, velocity is not as important as accuracy. If your accuracy is good at 3,000 FPS, searching for the extra 400 FPS will just cost money.
 
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