.45acp poor handload accuracy

[mnnate]

This is my first post on here after reading and looking thru this forum for a while. I recently got into reloading and am encountering some trouble with my 45acp handloads. Here is my recipe.>
5.8 gr. of unique,1.26"o.a.l.,230gr. hornady fmjrn, remington 2.5 lg. pistol primers.
I'm not getting near the accuracy that I was with factory ammo.I thought it maybe was me or my 1911 but I gave my buddy a box to try with disappointing results as well. My question is where did I go wrong? Any tips would be appreciated! Thanks

 

[45ACPUSER]

The OAL is probably too long. 1.250".
Did you just pluck that charge out of the air? Did you do a stair step work of powder charges to look for function? accuracy? and reliabilty?

 

[dardascastbullets]

Hi mnnate,

Your listed load data is in the realm of the 45-230 FMJ including your OAL. It is very difficult to diagnose your problem via messaging so I will throw in my suggestions.

Are you throwing your powder or dipping your powder?

Are your cases factory or military with a crimp? If they have a crimp, have you properly removed the crimp?

Are the bullets being seated without any signs of copper jacket shavings?

Are your case mouths deburred inside and outside without any sign of remaining burr?

Are your cases pristine in that the bases are not damaged?

Have you inspected your seating die to ensure that the bullet seating stem is properly adjusted? And is the bullet seating die properly adjusted to the shell holder?

I believe that if you review these items you will find your gremlin. I trust that this will help you.

 

[mnnate]

They are factory cases. A mix between Win. and Rem. I am throwing powder charges from a rcbs uniflow being careful to check for consistancy before loading. No signs of shavings. Crimp measurements are the same as factory umc ammo, measuring at the mouth after bullet is seated and taper crimped. I didn't deburr at all so maybe thats where my problem lies. They sound different as well we noticed. They seem to shoot about 6" left of poa at 30 ft. I am confused at this most of all??!!

 

[nksmfamjp]

I would strongly suggest trying another bullet first. Usually bullets will be the largest factor. After that, I pressure tune. Maybe a different charge or even powder burm rate will help.

 

[raz-0]

First off, what factory ammo, and what kind of accuracy?

Are we chasing inches, or milimeters here.

What equipment ar you using for realoading?

1st question I'd have is roll crimp or taper crimp? Taper crimp is what you are getting with factory ammo, and roll crimp tends to cause issues by distorting the case or the bullet. The lee factory crimp die works well in my experience.

2nd, how much crimp? Is it enough to prevent bullet set back when chambering a round? If not, every shot fired probably has a different OAL by the time it is in the chamber, just due to making it's way up the feed ramp. To check this, check the OAL with calipers for a bunch of rounds if it isn't really consistent, you can write the OAL with a sharpie on the side of the case. Load them in the mag, fire a round, then eject the next live round. Repeat a few times until you have 5-10 rounds chambered under nomral use, but not fired. Check OAL compared to original OAL. If it's changing, that's a problem.

Check the OAL of your known good factory ammo. Most .45 factory is shorter than 1.26, and SAAMI is .1.275. Most of my samples of factory rounds are <1.24".

All the previous questions about shaving jackets and how you are measuring your powder are relevant too. Although I presonally do not recommend trimming and chamfering .45 ACP. It tends to screw with hte ability to get a good crimp and worsens issues with shaving bullet material. The cartridge is also SUPPOSED to headspace off the case mouth, so messing with it isn't always the best idea. Similar problems can be caused by brass tht has been cleaned in a cement mixed for too long (peens the case mouth).

 

[ljnowell]

They are all shooting consistently left? I would probably want to look at the bullets as first cause, in all honesty. It seems like when my charge isnt perfect I get shotgun groups, not a consistent left or right. That just doesnt seem to make a lot of sense.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

On the Alliant site they list a OAL of 1.26" with their tested load using Unique. They also list a charge range of 4.4gr to 6.5gr Unique so that doesn't seem to be the problem either. They are using a Speer 230gr TMJRN instead of a Hornady but they are also similar.

I have a feeling the charge and OAL aren't the problem, something else is messing with the accuracy. Unfortunately I'm at a loss as to what it might be other than a canted bullet or improper crimp that might be damaging the bullet. (and those are a outside guess at best) It's very hard to diagnose problems like this without being hands-on.

Please keep us posted...

 

[Schleprok62]

I'm with 45ACPUSER... did you work up to this load, or just decide: :hey... 5.8 gr of powder just sounds like a winner..." I use Titegroup for .45ACP and 200 gr XTP's and worked up to what I found to be the best charge for my 24/7 Taurus... did the same for 185gr XTP's... as well as the 230gr XTP's also... there is a magic formula... you just have to find what it is your gun likes...

Cheers...

 

[Steve C]

6.0 to 6.2grs of Unique will give you 850 fps from a Gov model 1911 for a duplicate of military ammo ballistics. Hornady says 1.250" OAL for their bullet.

Go up 2/10ths grain and go down 2/10ths and see if you get any improvement. Load a few at each charge and try them out.

 

[raz-0]

Guess you were answering stuff as i was typing questions.

IF they are consistently hitting left for you and another shooter who aren't seeing the same issue with factory ammo, that is very odd. My experience matches ljnowell's. If a load is bad for a particular gun, the pattern usually opens up fairly uniformly, unless the bullets are tumbling and keyholing. In that case, they usually open up and shift some.

Use an inertia bullet puller to disassemble a couple cartridges, and check for damage or deformation of the bullet.

When you say they sound different, do you jsut mean from factory (which is normal), or from shot to shot?

Also, what firearm are you getting these results from (also your friends, as that's why we aren't just saying shooter error in this case).

 

[Slamfire]

You sure it’s the ammo? I assume you are using a M1911. Those pistols are not easy to shoot.

I was out shooting one yesterday. I don’t shoot them as well as my revolvers.

I have shot 6.0 grs Unique with a 230 L. It shot well, though the loads were faster than I wanted. 6.0 grs Unique almost averaged 900 fps. Too fast for me. It recoiled hard. If I try it again, I am going to cut it to between 5.0 and 5.5 and see what load gives me 800 fps.

IF they are consistently hitting left for you and another shooter who aren't seeing the same issue with factory ammo, that is very odd.

Not if both shooters are pushing the pistol as they pull the trigger. Shooting left is a common effect of flinching. And I do it all the time.


M1911 Kimber Custom Classic

230 LRN 6.0 grs Unique lot UN387 6/21/93 Mixed brass WLP
OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"

18-Mar-07 T = 62 °F
Ave Vel = 898
Std Dev = 21.44
ES = 75.58
High = 944.3
Low = 868.7
N = 25
about 4" high accurate lots recoil 15' foot ejection


230 LRN 6.5 grs Unique lot UN387 6/21/93 Mixed brass WLP
OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"

18-Mar-07 T = 62 °F
Ave Vel = 926.4
Std Dev = 16.64
ES = 71.16
High = 963.4
Low = 892.3
N = 32
light leading accurate centered hard recoil 20 foot ejection

 

[mnnate]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Here's the rundown: I shoot a Taurus pt1911, my buddy shoots a Kimber gold match. We both shoot A LOT so thats why we got into reloading. We both would shoot consistant sub 4" 8 shot groups at 30 ft.-(being conservative). I don't think we are the problem!
2nd. I measured o.a.l. for the factory stuff we normally shoot which is umc, and blazer brass, some non brass. Looking at a range of 1.257-1.262 for the factory stuff. Mine is running 1.261.
3rd. I measured the crimp at the mouth of the case with a seated bullet to be 0.474". This is slightly looser than what others have listed.
4th. They sound different from factory ammo it seems. They are consistant from reload to reload. I'm guessing this may be due to different powder/charge from factory.
5th. I just cycled 8 rnds. thru my 1911 at a fast pace. Manually because I can't get to a range til Friday. There is no change in o.a.l. They cycle and feed flawlessly.
I may drop the charge to 5.5 gr. and increase the crimp to 0.469" and give it a try.
rockchucker press and rcbs carbide 3 die set.

 

[The Bushmaster]

There are soooo many combinations for the venerable .45 ACP that it's hard to determine what you did wrong. I say that because 99.9% of all loads for the .45 ACP are accurate. Some are just more accurate. Try W-231, Bullseye, AA #7, WSF, etc, etc.....And stay around 1.250" +/- a few for 230 grain bullet...(personally prefer 185 grain HP bullet at 1.190" to 1.195"...)

 

[schmeky]

We both would shoot consistant sub 4" 8 shot groups at 30 ft.-(being conservative). I don't think we are the problem!

That's only 10 yards. If this is two handed unsupported with factory ammo - not to bad. For accuracy testing you must shoot from a supported bench rest.

Set up 2 identical targets at 10 yards, shoot a mag with the factory ammo, shoot the other with your handloads, as a baseline start.

I agree with Bushmaster, it's hard NOT to find a 45ACP load that doesn't display even reasonable accuracy, especially at 10 yards.

Shooting left is a common effect of flinching. And I do it all the time.

SlamFire1, I do to, I have to really work at.

 

[45ACPUSER]

I am of the the thought that the load needs tweaking.....

I keep my 230gr FMJ at 1.25" COAL.
I have the crimp on the case mouth to be about 0.470 +/-.

I shoot close to 25K of 45ACP a year out of several platforms.

People do need to work up loads, period.

When I used to use 231, out of Colt Gold Cup Series 70, out of Ransom Rest every thing from 4.7 to 6.0 of 231 with a 200gr LSWC H&G 68 was accurate with some extra tightness of the groups noted at 4.7/5.4/6.0.

They crossed over well to a Colt Commander, Colt Officers Model, Sig 220 and 625's

People need to learn that there is trial and error to reloading .

 

[magnum loader]

I am changing the subject a little here but I am new to 45 acp reloading but not to reloading in general. I have about 600 pieces 1 shot mixed brass readied for reloading & while depriming Sat. I see different flash hole diameters from brand to brand, Win., Star, Fed.,Blazer. A good difference too, nothing like I ever saw in my 357 reloadings. How is this dia. difference going to change my reload shooting accuracy? Should I change the tiny holes to match the larger ones? Any thoughts here?

 

[The Bushmaster]

magnum loader...Not one bit.

Shooting consistently to the left is caused by squeezing the grips harder just as you pull the trigger.

 

[Floppy_D]

Shooting it from a rest takes you out of the equation... which helps troubleshoot. You said a 4" group at 10 yds (being conservative)... that's roughly a 40 MOA group. Your pistol is capable of better than that, I'm sure. Put it on a rest, shoot a few groups, diagnose. If it shoots fine from the rest, work on dry fire/dummy drills until you've got it. If it still throws rounds that far off (which I doubt) move on. Make darned sure your grip doesn't change for different recoil... if you grip harder for stiffer loads, you're going to change where the bullets fall, no question. Try a rest, that's my first bet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am changing the subject a little here but I am new to 45 acp reloading but not to reloading in general. I have about 600 pieces 1 shot mixed brass readied for reloading & while depriming Sat. I see different flash hole diameters from brand to brand, Win., Star, Fed.,Blazer. A good difference too, nothing like I ever saw in my 357 reloadings. How is this dia. difference going to change my reload shooting accuracy? Should I change the tiny holes to match the larger ones? Any thoughts here?

Some people think I go a little overboard but I always sort my brass. I shoot the same headstamp when developing and testing new loads. IMO it takes one possible reason for inaccuracy out of the equation. There are so many variables why overlook something so easy to eliminate?

 

[mnnate]

My 4" groups were off hand shooting w/the factory ammo. The reloads wouldn't hold anything tighter than 10". I will try some different loads and I picked up some bulk winchester 230gr. fmj's to try. I will shorten the o.a.l. to about 1.25" and try this again with loads on either side of my starting 5.8gr. Will report back with a range report.

 

[Walkalong]

I use a horrid mix of range brass and have loads that can shoot through one tiny hole at 7 yards if I do my part. Some day I may even bolt the gun up in the Caldwell rest my wife bought me and see what they can do at 25 or 50 yards. I am sure sorting cases can help a bit, but not enough to matter for my shooting.

I have been following the thread a bit and your load seems fine. Someone suggested changing bullets, and that would be my first guess. Assuming you are not overcrimping and damaging the bullet, it should shoot better than what you are getting. Make sure your primers are all seated flush or below and try a different bullet. If that doesn't work, change primers. It that does not work, change powder charge a bit, or change powders, but heck, Unique should work just fine. This one is puzzling for sure.

 

[BullitHolz]

You need to shoot off a rest to determine the accuracy of the new loads, simple as that. If you change the powder/charge you also change the firing/handling characteristics of the gun.

You shoot factory ammo well because you "know" how that stuff shoots but your reloads don't sound the same, feel the same or "shoot" the same because they aren't the same as that factory stuff.

Rest the gun, shoot some groups an then once your satisfied with the accuracy of the load, shoot it off hand. Most likley your will find you'll need to "retrain" yourself to shoot the new load well.

 

[Sunray]

If you just picked the load, that doesn't work. You have to work up the load same as you would a rifle load.
A 10" group means your pistol doesn't like that load. Just changing the bullet may or may not make any difference. Change powder as well.

 

[Slamfire]

I use a horrid mix of range brass and have loads that can shoot through one tiny hole at 7 yards if I do my part.

Me too! And I dump my charges.

Some day I may even bolt the gun up in the Caldwell rest my wife bought me and see what they can do at 25 or 50 yards.

If you ever do, let us know. I am curious for one.

I am sure sorting cases can help a bit, but not enough to matter for my shooting.

In pistols, all you have to do is shoot within 2 inches at 25 yards, and that is a perfect score in Bullseye. I don't think ammunition perfection is all that critical in pistol shooting. The human error is so large.

I have shot, in rifles, all headstamps mixed, at 300 yards. I can't tell much of a difference.

At 600 yards, heck, if I am going to drive 2 hours to a match, I am going to use the theorical best ammo I can.