Factory Refinish

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highpower said:
but why does a FACTORY refinish detract from the value of a firearm.
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Depends on how bad it was and who's buying. Hardcore "collectors" want NIB condition and all original. It probably wouldn't detract from the value for someone like me that's going to shoot it & yeah... I enjoy looking & fondling, too. ;) I would shy away though, from a Bubba job with rounded off rollmarks & frame/sideplate edges.

People have been tinkering with the looks of their guns since they were invented. All sorts of things have been done from carving on the stocks to engraving the metal.
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And you've undoubtedy seen some of their work & cringed...:barf:
 
Craig, you just put words in my mouth. And you did indeed talk about antique arms: "Would you send a blackpowder era Colt, Winchester or Marlin to the manufacturer for restoration or would you be better off sending it to a shop like Turnbull's" as well as "A well-worn "original" Colt may be worth $2000 and a restored blackpowder Colt may be worth ten times that."

I own black powder Colts, by the way, or at least one, and I haven't seen refinished Colts cost $20,000. Which one are you referring to?
 
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The value of anything is determined solely by what the buyer is willing to pay for it.
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Exactly! Collectors are trend followers. What is in vogue today,bringing 5 digit prices,may not bring a fraction of that price in the future. Most gun buyers are shooters not collectors and will pay more for a nice looking gun than for one that looks worn. Get away from THR and some other gun forums and you will find that the mainstream gun owner doesn't care about matching numbers or pedigree just "does it look good and will it shoot"?.
 
And what greater vanity is it to base demand on looks? Your interests may be different, and fellows don't collect 1980's Savage rifles or Remington 710's, but the greatest value a firearm possesses far exceeds its mere shooting qualities. Otherwise, it is impossible to explain how an old black-powder in original condition, or a Chinese NDN-86, can be worth more than four grand when compared to a new Howa and yet be neither as comely or accurate. It remains a solid fact that collectors drive value far greater than shooters.

Interest in an arm depends on a great many things and in the great wide world of gun ownership, there are many types. Or do you think that Mauser owners are interested in merely pretty guns? Indeed, if it remains largely the best shooting arms, then no military surplus arms would ever be considered as a commercial hunting rifle is virtually always superior.
 
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S&W refinished my grandfathers model 10

There is a long story of how my grandfathers model 10 got this way, basically being locked in a foam case for over a decade with no care before I inherited it.

Knowing how my grandfather was about this model 10 which he taught me to shoot on I could not in good conscience leave it this way though it shot fine.
model10before.jpg

So I sent it back to S&W but called before I did and told them what it meant to me and what I was looking for. The very nice gentlemen said not to worry they would take good care of me and the model 10. For a little over $200 they replaced all of the internal parts and reblued it. Two weeks later this is what I got in return.

Bluing so deep it looks wavy in the sun or bright lights.
model10after.jpg
 
"Only to other collectors. Shooters don't care what collectors are buying or what they are paying for it."

And it was stated in this thread that value is what folks will pay for it. Collectors pay more than shooters. They are, then by definition, what drives the value. Indeed, collectors have a term: "shooter's grade." That means a firearm, usually mis-matched or refinished, whose value as a collector is lost leaving only its value as a shooting arm. Many collectors buy them precisely because collectors are also shooters. But a shooter's grade arm is generally 50% to far less than 50% value of an arm whose value is derived from rarity or historical significance. A 1903 that is worn but with Guadalcanal provenance has greater value than one that is pretty but came from a rack at a national guard armory.

And even then, it seems shooters do not merely buy for shooting qualities. Otherwise it would be absurd to pay more for a refinished piece that does not shoot any better than a worn piece. Refinishing by its very nature makes no improvement to accuracy and thus a shooter wastes no time in that.

So, there exists a third person, the aesthetic. They want it to shoot well, of course, but they want it to be pretty. That is the whole point, it seems, of the discussion. A man who needs a pretty gun has reasons that can be justified by him and those like him, but they have nothing to do with being a "shooter." That is mere justification. That need not be wrong or bad, but it is also no more superior than others.

"I am a shooter, but my things need to be pretty. I'll pay more money for pretty."

That may be no more superior than a collector saying, "I am a collector and I want my things to be rare or have history. I'll pay more money for rare or experienced."

Or, who here would not pay more for George S. Patton's Remington model 51 even if it were to be worn? Who here, on that same token, would refinish said pistol? In any case, to pretend that a shooter's perspective is somehow more noble or superior to any other is just another justification for an opinion or a point of view.
 
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, to pretend that a shooter's perspective is somehow more noble or superior to any other is just another justification for an opinion or a point of view.
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I never said it was superior nor inferior but equal. What I'm saying (and you have said as well)is whether to refinish or not need only be justified to the owner's satisfaction, not what some collector would have paid for it.
 
Yet a return on value, which is my point, is not likely.

In other words, don't refinish expecting to get your money out of it. Rarely does a refinish justify its cost in actual dollars and cents.
 
Craig, you just put words in my mouth. And you did indeed talk about antique arms
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Yes, I did make a reference to antique guns and never said I didn't. :confused:


I own black powder Colts, by the way, or at least one, and I haven't seen refinished Colts cost $20,000. Which one are you referring to?
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It was an exaggerated example to make a point. The point being that not all money put into refinishing, or more accurately restoration, is wasted.


Yet a return on value, which is my point, is not likely.

In other words, don't refinish expecting to get your money out of it. Rarely does a refinish justify its cost in actual dollars and cents.
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Like I said, it depends and there are few accurate blanket statements to be made. Methinks most this rhetoric is assuming you're paying too much for a well-used sixgun and then a local hack job to go at it on the buffer like a cracked out gorilla. You spend $200 on a decent sixgun and have Turnbull refinish it, it WILL be worth more, a lot more. You spend $400 on a $200 sixgun and have Bubba polish the piss out of it, it will be worth less. I have four custom Rugers built by big name gunsmiths and I could get 90% of my money out of any of them.


PS, your tone is typical of egotistical, arrogant, elitist collectors who never fail to rub me the wrong way.
 
don't refinish expecting to get your money out of it
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That we can agree on..in theory,at least, but it isn't an absolute. If the piece is aquired at a low enough cost and I do my own bluing, I can expect to see an increase beyond the investment. I've done this several times.
 
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Let me see if I have this right, and I am referring solely to the gun I wrote about in Post 29

1. Initial investment: Used S&W Mod 19-4 6" - $250
2. S&W refinish high bright blue - $275
3. Shipping and insurance - guesstimate of - $50

At $575 that would be close, but within the $500 to $600 model 19s in good shape bring around here. If I knock the finish back to the standard finish and blue that would save $55 for a total of $520. That's doable.

Now, my reason for buying the gun was to harvest the target trigger and hammer for another 19 I have. By swapping out these two items I am saving just over $100 if I was even able to find these two obsolete parts. Let's do the numbers again with that figured in.

$575 minus the $100 savings for parts gives me a net of $475 invested in a gun that will sell in my market for $500 to $600, That's a profit. Switch to standard polish and bluing at S&W and it's $420 for a market price of between $500 and $600. That's a real profit.

This will not work with every gun, and I freely admit it, but saying it can't be done at all is just wrong. You need to have a good bargain to start with before it routinely becomes profitable.
 
Craig, sorry for looking down on you. I don't. You don't even begin to know me nor my nature. Sorry, too, if my objective view of the facts bothers you. Many have trouble when truth gets in the way of their likes. However, you were the one who got arrogant and elitist with your cigars and fine finishes and how life is better lived in luxury rather than living with an arm with a crappy finish. Me condescending? To thine own self be true.

What have I said to you that was elitist or condescending?
 
Which is worth more?

Which of these 2 Ruger GP100s would you pay more for?
 

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Craig, sorry for looking down on you. I don't. You don't even begin to know me nor my nature. Sorry, too, if my objective view of the facts bothers you. Many have trouble when truth gets in the way of their likes. However, you were the one who got arrogant and elitist with your cigars and fine finishes and how life is better lived in luxury rather than living with an arm with a crappy finish. Me condescending? To thine own self be true.

What have I said to you that was elitist or condescending?
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Relax dude, I didn't spit on your dog or call you a bad name. You've obviously missed every point I've tried to make.....so nevermind. :rolleyes:
 
#1 has it's original finish, so it must be worth more than #2 with it's refinish.....I know this for a fact, because I read it on the internet.
 
It is your gun and you need to do with it whatever feels right, if it were me, I would leave the 29 alone. I have one about the same vintage in about the same condition, mine still wears the original coke grips, but they aren't perfect either. In my mind the wear adds to its charm. The gun itself still functions perfectly and I have taken deer with it on a few occasions.

In any event I doubt I will look as good as your 29 does after 50 years. Shoot it and enjoy it is what I would do.
 
"PS, your tone is typical of egotistical, arrogant, elitist collectors who never fail to rub me the wrong way."

I'm nice and relaxed. Just responded to that message above. But there does come a point where egos and the like can get in the way of discussion and am willing to call off dogs in that hunt. I'm not against you, I pointed out early that people have different objectives and that pretty can be fine. I'm swayed by historically significant things and value things not customized or altered. Hot Rods don't impress me, an all original 1940 Chrysler Super Deluxe does.

Part of that is having seen all sorts of hack jobs called "customizations" done to all sorts of things - a desk made in 1820 only to be painted pink and put in a kids room, an ultra rare VKT M27 chopped, diced, and sporterized only to be abandoned at the pawn shop, the Krag rifle trashed on "American Guns," a cuirassier's sword almost certainly from Waterloo polished and buffed to look new, or General Stephen D. Lee's home modernized, with the original hand-painted decorations on the walls (instead of wall paper) painted over, the original books sold off, and new doors cut through original walls. The word "refinish" seldom rises to the level you focus on. I'll grant you have all along not been referring to that.

I'm for private property, and the examples I have described (all true examples by the way) were legal and the right of the owners. Even so, it showed a callous disregard for the thing and its future, which will out last us. I'm just glad at least one owner of the Declaration of Independence didn't use it to line the bird cage or for paper air planes. I urge folks to not permanently alter many things for that reason. There is a far bigger picture. I also urge guys not to pour out oil on their property, not because I'm an eco-nut, but because somebody else will own that property one day and you're just leaving a mess for them.

I also do financial planning for clients - I'm a Forestry Consultant among many things. I consider the value of actions, and don't recommend actions that bring no return to their forest. The land is theirs, and if they want to do in-woods mulching even though a slow fire will accomplish the same result at a tithe the cost (plus the fact that in the south, most forests are fire dependent ecosystems that see more benefits than merely removing brush from fire), then fine by me. I know a number of contractors to take the job.

So, you say "refinish if it makes you happy, life is too short for ugly guns and having a comely weapon brings fulfillment." I say "don't refinish because it almost never justifies the cost and might really degrade the value of an item. Just spend that money on a better version of what ever you are looking at."

I'm fine with your advice. Be fine with my counter point. In the end, we're on the same team anyway.

And Jimmy, anyone might pay more for the refinished one, but I won't pay the same price as if it were new. I won't pay $200 more for the refinished revolver, and the biggest danger is I don't know what else might be up with it. Perhaps that's because around here, many refinished guns spent time under salt water with Katrina and have all sorts of hidden problems. Kind of like a used-car salesman using paint to cover up all sorts of problems with a car he is selling.
 
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anyone might pay more for the refinished one, but I won't pay the same price as if it were new
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New price doesn't figure into it. The point is that refinishing doesn't always lessen resale value.
 
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