Failed On Too Many Levels

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by P5 Guy, Dec 30, 2018.

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  1. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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  2. Browning

    Browning Member

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    The main difference is that the police responding aren't in the situation, the teachers and coaches are. It's their lives which that are at risk. So far many teachers have met their end in these active shooter situations doing everything in their power to protect kids, they just didn't have the one tool that might've stopped it.

    They are also right there and they can see everything that's going on. The teachers also know these students as individuals and can often pick out which teenagers are likely to be a problem.

    IMG_8637.JPG
     
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  3. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    I see two separate roles in improving armed response to active murderer situations in schools. One of hunter, the other of defender.

    I agree that, in general, trying to turn teachers into hunters of mass murderers wouldn't be helpful. In general, the mindsets just don't match up. Some few individuals among school personnel might have the mindset for the hunter role, perhaps. However, with regard to tool selection and availability, we shouldn't impose a hunter mindset onto any discussion regarding those tools that a defender might want to use.

    Placing an armed teacher or other responsible adult in an ambush position IS the goal of introducing firearms into schools. A cornered cat will fight to protect itself and its kittens.

    For most school personnel, the mindset should be to "1) get out if it can be done safely, but 2) forcefully defend if you must."

    The principles of classroom defense closely mirror those of home defense, except that too often tool selection remains stuck in the 1970s. Its time to change that.

    https://www.ksl.com/article/46431984/sheriff-supports-armed-teachers-to-stop-school-shooters
     
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  4. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    Haven't some retired police or military gone into teaching?
     
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  5. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    Sadly, in this case all the clowns were milling around outside wearing badges.
     
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  6. Rifleman173

    Rifleman173 Member

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    Haven't some retired police or military gone into teaching? Yes, some of us have gone into teaching. I teach local police officers and some civilians. Where the problem lies in schools is the volume of people milling around and trying to detect the armed student among the unarmed students. When you look for 1 bad student out of 600 or more unarmed students things can get very difficult unless people direct you to the 1 armed student or unless the 1 armed student gives himself away in some fashion.
     
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  7. Jeff22

    Jeff22 Member

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    Jenrick made a perfect observation: "Unfortunately a lot of officers from small agencies never have the opportunity as a young rookie to see what kind of person they are, and they go their whole career thinking they are that kind of person, until they are suddenly thrust into a situation like this. Rather than learning this about themselves as new rookies, with a veteran by their side to limit the damage their inaction causes. Human nature is not to run to gunfire and screaming, but to run away. It takes a lot conditioning and a special personality to be that one that does run to it."

    Speaking as one who has had a LOT of training but who has spent most of a nearly 40 year career working in quieter jurisdictions where violent crime is still an unusual event, this is absolutely spot on. Working in a quieter, more orderly environment means you probably DON'T get a lot of experience handling crime-in-progress calls, and you probably DON"T get exposed to a wide variety of different calls -- you get good at the same dozen events that you respond to over and over, and you don't get an opportunity to develop your skills in other areas through repeated personal experience. Training is great, but there is no substitute for personal experience.

    There are a LOT of cops who have some or many of the skills necessary to do the job who may never get in a situation where they discover that they don't have all the skills they thought they did . . .

    LikeSA made this point: "Regarding LE agencies, it's a training issue. In LE you're a generalist: keep up with constantly changing laws, learn the psychology behind a suicidal party, new methods of traffic stops and places to hide drugs and new drugs, new way to file affidavits or changes to court procedure...and on and on. Somewhere in there, here is a day to train in active killer scenarios...just enough time for you to run through with a red gun (or sims if you're lucky) once. Stand around and twiddle your fingers while you wait your turn for a 3 minute scenario. It is another check mark on a long list of things to re-certify in each year."

    How training is conducted varies greatly from agency to agency and from state to state. The agencies in my county normally have in-service training 3 to 6 times a year (I think one day quarterly is most common). That includes firearms training, legal updates, certifying in emergency vehicle operation every other year, certifying in CPR every other year, and getting trained on any changes in department policy or procedure. And we usually do response-to-active-shooter every other year, doing scenarios with airsoft guns or Simunitions. We just got ballistic shields and have done a little bit of training with them live fire on the range and doing some very simple two officer team tactics. When you consider all the stuff that cops should remain current on, 24 or 32 or 40 hours a year of in-service training gets filled up pretty quickly.

    I think most private citizens greatly over-estimate the amount of training that police actually get, at least in most cases.
     
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  8. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    My opinion, as a non-LEO?

    If you (meaning anybody, not you personally) can't do the job, then move on to something else.

    Life is FULL of risks. In fact, risk (and safety) is relative, not absolute.

    Being a law enforcement officer, sanctioned by the State to enforce the many and sundry laws by means which include the use of deadly force, if you cannot own up to this then you should not be there.

    I said I'm not LEO. I spent 20 years in the Navy as a qualified Reactor Operator aboard submarines. I think we can all agree that if I did not have what it takes to live and breath reactor safety, I would have had no business in that role. If I was not able and willing to do what it took to ensure reactor safety, despite what others around and above me may think or say, then the job would not have been for me.

    When the Killer Clown is killing, get your keister in there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
     
  9. george29

    george29 Member

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    Get your Keister in and shoot who? What if the shooter has tucked his gun away? Who do you shoot? The 16 year old who looks like he might be a suspect? I got suspended for knowingly walking into a hostage situation and after a lengthy conversation peacefully disarming the dad holding his twin infants hostage due to a domestic problem. I was young and trusted my instincts, there was no back up for miles and the radio was extremely quirky in the hill country I was patrolling. I still got suspended and reprimanded and was demoted. I'm not saying I wouldn't go in to a school shooting, I was a loose cannon, but most normal cops followed procedure and procedure clearly states that an officer must wait for back up.

    Blame the politicians, parents and Schools for not coming up with anything better than duck and hide, it has never worked but that doesn't stop our educators from parroting this solution.

    Do you realize what would happen if a cop shot your child by accident? I doubt you would be so adamant. Just as I would never think to tell a Submariner their job why would a Submariner who admittedly has no LE experience think it's OK to tell others theirs?

    As for me personally, I no longer wear a badge but knowing what I know, would never even think about wearing one again.
    I know I'm calloused but I really have no sympathy left for victims mainly because they choose to be victims but if a warrior dares to push a kid out of the way to face an attacker you can bet your white dress uniform that kid's parents are going straight to Twitter and Facebook after they've contacted a lawyer.

    BTW, the few sailors that I once knew were tough as nails and took no BS but you can't just barge in to every situation. Cops don't know what's going on, who's the bad guy, how many there are, etc. etc. Many times cops shoot the wrong person (Officer Mohamed Noor, Charles Kinsey) for example.

    It ain't like TV, it's chaotic, noisy, fast, nerve wracking, foggy and disjointed. The responders senses are bombarded and many times a hasty action is the wrong one.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  10. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    My bone to pick is before 1970 kids like this one would have been locked up in a State mental hospital, But Rose eyed glasses Lady Bird Johnson got this system gutted with her misplaced sympathy!
     
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  11. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    What I said was "When the Killer Clown is killing, get your keister in there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT."

    Nowhere in there did I say "Get your Keister in and shoot..."

    All those "what ifs" you posted fall under the category of "evaluate and take action as required". It's part and parcel for the job. If a LEO cannot handle that, then why are they in the job?

    Does anybody here honestly think I could have used "what if" excuses to not do my job as a Reactor Operator on a submarine, the most advanced mobile weapons platform ever designed in human history? What if I didn't follow my procedures and training during a flooding casualty and inadvertently lost propulsion in the middle of a flooding casualty at test depth? What if, during a flooding casualty, something else unexpected happened which further threatened the ship? Those dolphins on my chest told every other shipmate on that submarine that I had what it took to figure it out and take the appropriate actions as required. My oral board with the Commanding Officer himself certified me by law as a qualified, fully capable Reactor Operator. If I couldn't cut it, then I would not have deserved those dolphins, or my nuclear qualifications, and I would have been disqualified and removed from submarine duty. The SAME philosophy applies to law enforcemen officers, in my opinion. If you can't hack it, then move on to something you CAN hack and let someone else move up instead.

    Life is FULL of uncertainties. Some of them are dangerous. And some jobs are supposed to be able to deal with those dangerous uncertainties.

    And you know what? Sometimes we get hammered (justly or not) for doing what was right for the time. That comes with the territory. When I made Chief, that was a defining characteristic driven home to me and my fellow selectees at the time by all the other Chiefs charged with our training and initiation. We do the right thing, regardless. And sometimes that means we fall on the sword in the process for the greater good. Sucks...but that's what it takes to REALLY live up to the ideal.

    Granted...there are probably procedures to be followed, and training to be had, in the LEO field for just such situations. Maybe it's specialized, I don't know...I've never been a LEO. I'll leave those details to you and others and trust that your word on such matters is far more credible than mine.


    "Just as I would never think to tell a Submariner their job why would a Submariner who admittedly has no LE experience think it's OK to tell others theirs?"

    You have every right to demand that a Submariner be able to do their job, regardless of your own experience. You may not be able to rightfully tell a Submariner HOW to do their job, but that's not what we're talking about.

    Likewise, I won't tell a LEO how to do their job. I will say, however, that if a LEO CANNOT do their job, they should move on. And that's at all levels...from the most junior at the lowest levels, all the way up the ranks and across the board. Local law enforcement, county, state, federal...and for the red headed stepchildren of the military, the Coast Guard. (They're a whole 'nuther level of law enforcement!)


    "It ain't like TV, it's chaotic, noisy, fast, nerve wracking, foggy and disjointed. The responders senses are bombarded and many times a hasty action is the wrong one."

    Absolutely, you're right. And like I told an instructor giving us that stupid "Total Quality Leadership" training many, many years ago (it was a civilian corporate "Total Quality Management" training retitled with no changes and branded as the latest and greatest method of leadership, superceding all others which came before it in totality), "This isn't Star Trek. When 'Torpedo Evasion' is announced, we don't gather up all the department heads and adjurn to the Captain's Study to figure out what to do. There's a time and a place to conduct business like this, but when push comes to shove, sometimes the REAL answer is '**** and do your job!'"

    If LEO training is done properly, I imagine it's much like mine was while in the Navy. You're given the building blocks, you put those into practice to positively reinforce them, and you learn how the basic principles behind them are applied to give you the correct results. Then your training gets ramped up...different scenarios with "anomolies" thrown in to get you to figure out how to prioritize, how to work together as a team to handle complications, etc. Then it's all critiqued and trained upon so you can learn what worked, what didn't, and how to improve.

    A flooding casualty drill is simple and straight forward, depending on whether it's forward or aft. But flooding drills are quickly ramped up in a variety of ways to make them as realistically chaotic as real life. Flooding means the possibility of loss of propulsion. It means the possibility of the Emergency Blow System not working. It means possible loss of electrical equipment. It means the possibility of electrical fires. It means possible loss or garbled communications. It means injuries or deaths. It means loss of lighting. It means damage control equipment not working properly. All these, and more. Pretty darned chaotic, indeed!

    I fully expect a LEOs life to sometimes be every bit as chaotic as Submarine casualties in his/her own experiences, sometimes. But they STILL have a job to do.

    And that, my friend, is what I mean.
     
  12. OneFreeTexan

    OneFreeTexan Member

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    My take, for what it’s worth,,,, I visit all the schools in our country as a Gideon,,,One is in a small, mostlylow income village. That school is very secure,,,,, I have to go through two locked doors,,,, and between them is a security area of which I cannot leave. They won’t open the second door until they are certain who I am...Fortunately they know me cause I have visited many times.... Then once inside I go no where!! Without a school personnel accompanying me... The interesting thing is all classroom doors have these locking devices that automatically lock the doors from the administrative office. They are like large steel pegs that go up from the floor to lock the door in place. And there are at least two people watching monitors every minute and they dare not slack their duty.....
    I am so proud of that little school.
     
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  13. entropy

    entropy Member

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    If you shoot the mime, should you use a silencer?
     
  14. george29

    george29 Member

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    Glad to hear, I was a School Janitor in a middle school for a few years (best darn job I ever had) and the entire school district hoped for the best but did very little other than that. Not long ago I went back to driving a school bus and one of the elementary schools actually had locked doors and an intercom and an administrator would personally let someone in after first verifying via intercom. So maybe things are changing. This same school district has approved armed security at the high schools ut at the same time at least 2 students were caught at school with guns intending on using them. Crazy world. I always had a gun in high school in my locker but it was different times.
     
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  15. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    Having spent my fair share of time in data centers, I can tell you the first segment of security you look at, is access control. Nobody who doesn't have business being in a data center, is ever let inside a data center. You enter the building and are required to identify yourself. Someone will have had to have placed you on an access list of some type. You don't leave the lobby or entry area without someone knowing you are there, who you are and what you have with you.
    Then, in most data centers, you get the vestibule where you and only you are allowed in (nobody walks in two at a time) The second door will not open until the first closes. Finally, you are on camera at all times while you are inside. Depending on what you are paying for, your rack or rack space will be in its own locked cage. You don't have the keys or combination to enter the others.
    If you fail any of the verification steps, you don't get in. There is simply too much at risk to allow security mistakes.

    Access control is key. If you want to make a serious effort at stopping school shootings, don't start by giving guns to teachers. Start by making sure nobody can sneak a gun into the school. If that means metal detectors and armed security forces (Clark County School District has its own police force with full powers of arrest) then so be it. One way in, One way out in the morning. You start from the assumption that only Teachers, Admins, Support Staff and Students have any business being at the school on a school day. If you are a parent and need to visit the school, you call ahead and make an appointment. The staff will verify your identity and as long as you match, you're allowed in after you walk through the manned metal detector.
    Once you can secure the campus, then you can think about who needs to be armed on the inside...and hint hint...it ain't the teachers with no training. To go on about arming teachers when schools are effectively open campus is like bandaging a papercut while the person is bleeding from a stab wound.
     
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  16. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    [QUOTE="george29, post: 11129139, member: 35714]"snip... Cops don't know what's going on, who's the bad guy, how many there are, etc. etc. Many times cops shoot the wrong person (Officer Mohamed Noor, Charles Kinsey) for example.

    It ain't like TV, it's chaotic, noisy, fast, nerve wracking, foggy and disjointed. The responders senses are bombarded and many times a hasty action is the wrong one.[/QUOTE]

    This is the god's honest truth! I got to attend an active shooter scenario with my step-daughter when she was in high school just a couple years ago. The Riviera Hotel/Casino here in Vegas was being torn down and they got permission from the LVCVA (new owners of the property) to use it for active shooter scenarios and mass casualty training. There was law enforcement from every local agency, medics from local fire depts. FBI, Marshalls, military MP/ SPs who had been invited to observe.
    Various groups of high school kids and their parents were placed around the building, in the showroom, in the corridors, in the casino where I was. We were told to wander around the casino area and act as if there was nothing going on. All the gaming machines had been removed but the seating and some tables were still there. We were told the scenario would begin by a certain time and to hang out until then and then we'd be placed and festivities would start.

    BANG BANG BANG BANG BOOM BOOM SURPRISE!!!!
    They didn't tell us when it would start and it caused freaking chaos. Everybody there knew why they were there and that it wasn't real and people, young and old, were screaming and trying to take cover. The only other exit was locked.
    From where I was hiding I could see the two 'shooters' kill at least 4 people. There were two of them and they were both carrying shotguns and handguns with plenty of ammo. It was loud hearing a 12ga roar indoors! That's when I realized that all the fantasizing about setting up a position and taking a shot with my snubbie, might well have gotten me killed first. A sobering epiphany...and mind you, I knew this was all fake.
    The cops arrived in record time although they may have already been on the way when the casino was shot up as the showroom was the target of a bomb.
    And after the SWAT team took out our casino shooters, they called an all-clear and everyone was directed outside to the old parking structure. We waited a bit though, because the mass casualty portion started and they were directing medics who were carrying out people with various made up injuries. It was interesting to see paramedics running in with gear and stretchers while being escorted by cops with AR15s. Then coming out with victims, some screaming, some 'dead' and others as walking wounded.

    It really gave me a new appreciation for these kinds of things and how armchair quarterbacking is just so limited.
     
  17. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    I'm going to begin with the obligatory remarks: I'm not a cop. Never been a cop. Don't want to be a cop.

    But I have both friends and family that are police officers. I enjoy their company and value them as people. But we all know that "going home at the end of my shift" is not their job. It is a hopeful outcome, but not the priority. Just as "making it back stateside" was not my job when Our Rich Uncle placed me on the other side of the world. That was what I hoped for when I'd finished my job.

    I completely understand and agree that you can never know for sure how you'll react when the excrement impacts the oscillator. I also know that the man I am now is different from the man I was a couple decades ago. I might react differently. But planning to be a coward seems like a bad idea.
     
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  18. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Agreed.

    And as one that took the training and felt it was so real ,was awake for a 'few' night second guessing seeing the children down and screaming [ acting ].

    And I was told ,after Columbine by a Lt. that if I actually took it upon myself to go in and "do something" that I would face suspension.

    I told him that knowing all that, he would have to sit on me [ he was / is rather large still ] to try and stop me.

    I had a gun [ or 2/3 ] and a ballistic vest and was DUTY BOUND to save lives.

    Allowing a pos to kill unarmed and helpless children was not about to happen on my watch.

    I got the last laugh,we both went to active shooter drills that were a 'bit' shocking and scary.

    After the drills we were told to enter with 4 officers ,first on scene = NEXT YEAR ,we were told that the first on scene enters !.

    I felt exonerated ,and I still feel that is how you handle it,NOT ,GUNS BLAZING but find the threat and remove it.

    I cannot abide or understand how any one [ especially a LEO ] does not RUN TO GUNFIRE. ,and hell no its not bravery its just why you took the job !.

    PROTECT & serve !.
     
  19. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I'm long out of police work but I can tell you that police bureaucracies do their best to discourage initiative in all of their officers (new or old-timers) since they've learned that you don't make waves if you want to advance... Wish there was some other way to say this - but that was my experience in a 22 year career... Individual supervisors (the better ones) might encourage their officers to act in hazardous situations without waiting -but that's an uphill battle afterwards for the supervisor (unless the action was spectacularly successful...). Every city or other unit of government wants a "good department" but frequently act in a contrary manner when it comes to supporting and encouraging the folks who actually do the job on the streets - often a long way from supervision in a heart stopping moment... I did my best to remember that sort of stuff as I moved up in rank and responsibility over the years... Living here in Broward county since 1976 I've had a first hand view of the various agencies and how they actually behave when it's all on the line...

    With most traditional policing models set in reactive as opposed to pro-active traditions it's not at all surprising to me that more than one agency has (or has had) great difficulty getting into an intervention type mode when an active shooter is involved. My hat's off to all the good line supervisors, mid-level managers, and others as they move their agencies into a much more active role in the rare event of an active shooter event.

    I'm also darned glad that I've been retired these past 24 years since I never liked not being certain of the level of support we'd receive in house or across the street where our city's government resided....
     
  20. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    "Not long ago I went back to driving a school bus and one of the elementary schools actually had locked doors and an intercom and an administrator would personally let someone in after first verifying via intercom."

    If a school had a problem with a non-custodial relative kidnapping a child, you bet security like that would be in place.
    In hindsight such security is reasonable even if not in response to an active shooter incident.
     
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  21. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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  22. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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  23. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I can’t even begin to imagine the thoughts running through his head at the time of the incident. I would think and hope that if I were in that situation that I would have reacted differently. Truth is, when bullets fly people react on instinct. Could he have done more, absolutely. Did he have a human response to protect himself, absolutely. No matter how this shakes out legally the societal verdict is already in and a political lynching is the sentence. Not only does he have to live with the memory of the situation, but he now has to live with the whole nation beating him up over it for the rest of his life. I suspect that with the way things are shaping up that the mans life may be short and his death may be driven by society but physically may be by his own actions.

    In short: THe tactics used were not the right ones, and the tactic he needs to use now is to duck, cover, and hope people forget who he is while he seeks counseling.
     
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  24. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I'm troubled by this action... Yes, the officer behaved improperly (very badly, actually...) but not one of us can predict how we'll respond to that one heart-stopping moment - and that's from a guy who did 22 years in police work. I'll certainly agree that he failed utterly and that there were certainly grounds for dismissal - and that 30 year pension he worked for might be correctly forfeited as a result - but criminal charges? So like everyone else I'll be watching closely to see how this plays out.

    Since I do live here in Broward county (but worked in the county to the south - now called Miami-Dade county I believe (it was simply Dade county when I worked for the city closest to Broward...). A few things I'm certain of at this point. The first is that there's overwhelming pressure here in Broward for anything that might possibly look like justice in a terrible situation where there were failures at every level - some of them long before the current Broward Sheriff's Office (BSO) found themselves holding the bag... From very large schools being designed and constructed without the slightest thought of security then filled to and over capacity (both of my kids attended a school designed exactly as the one in Parkland..) where an entire squad of officers would have great difficulty securing a three block area that anyone could access by simply jumping a low fence... to a sheriff's office that's been moving toward "consolidation" for years now - promising each small city that gave up it's own police department that they'd have great police coverage by their county's large sheriff's office - when that was never the case...

    I'm not going to re-hash stuff I've spoken about previously - but simply add to it that on the day in question... there was a single officer assigned to Parkland - and that usually "school resource officers" are hardly fit young officers dying for an opportunity to prove themselves. Instead the kind of officers chosen for that type of assignment are the least pro-active types on any agency (serious understatement...) and usually the type of officer that's just marking time towards the end of an un-distinguished career.

    Since I was mid-level management towards the end of my career I do have a pretty good idea of how staffing choices are made - and that's just one of many factors that make me very glad to be long out of police work. I won't waste any words on a state's attorney who chooses to bring these kind of charges - or the system here in Broward (the people's republic of Broward from my point of view...). Suffice it to say that "justice" doesn't seem to have much to do at all with what's going on currently. Unless that "justice" is a substitute for the summary punishment that involves a short rope and a tall tree...
     
  25. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    AMEN brother,Amen.

    I totally agree that the usual LEO getting assigned to SRO is NOT the rookie or truly street wise cop that wants to hang & bang with the streets.

    I had many opportunitys to get assigned to SRO ------------ and I soundly turned them down,how else could I get so banged up on the streets :)

    And its a legal FACT = that the federal courts have ruled that you do NOT have the "right" to protection by the police = period.

    Sad fact,but its the law and a local court charging a LEO with a case that was lost in federal courts a long time past ,is nothing but a feel good action.

    Very much like "lets pass another anti gun law ",has become.

    Was this man a horrible coward ,YES !.

    And he will have to live with that [ surprised he did not make a breakfast of his gun ].
     
    bikerdoc likes this.
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