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Failure to go into battery. (140k pictures)

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Jumping Frog, Mar 21, 2008.

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  1. Jumping Frog

    Jumping Frog Member

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    OK, as some of you may know, I am new to reloading. My latest iteration is still not producing acceptable rounds. I am loading 200 gr LSWC in .45ACP with Accurate #7 powder, and shooting them with a ParaOrdnance 14-45 Night-Tac.

    The rounds feed into the chamber, but the gun does not go into battery for a high percentage of rounds. Today had 15 of 40 rounds where the slide was pushed anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 inch back from being in battery. I used 4 different mags and the problem was consistent.

    When I drop that mag and clear the gun, each of the failed rounds had some crud on it. When I clean the crud off and replace on top of the magazine, then the round loads and shoots using either the slide release or a slingshot.

    I had the same problem earlier this week, so today I took 40 test rounds to the range. The case mouth and bullet of each round was carefully cleaned with a scotch-brite pad and I had 10 rounds each measuring 1.240", 1.245", 1.250", and 1.255". The gun was cleaned to a mirror finish before going to the range.

    Clean round:
    [​IMG]
    Two example rounds that failed to go into battery were:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now, I have also noticed the rounds are getting a dent in the bullet during feeding:
    [​IMG]
    I assume lead chips from dented bullets combined with powder residue is the crud creator. Probably doesn't help that Accurate #7 is a dirty powder.

    Has anyone else had feeding problems with LSWC bullets in ParaOrdnance .45's? I can't believe those dents are a good thing. The Para's have an integral ramped barrel.

    After the 40 test rounds, without cleaning the gun, I shot 30 Winchester White hardball rounds without any misfeeds or problems. Also, I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which also post-sizes the case and ensures the case isn't too big. Using only the stand-alone barrel, clean cartridges will chamber easily.

    Anyone have any suggestions? This reloader newbie is stumped.
     
  2. hotwheelz

    hotwheelz Member

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    My first question is what powder charge are you using?? Maybe not enough to fully cycle the gun, with light loads with some powder { I dont know about A#7 } you dont get complete burn . This would explain all the gunk on your bullet.

    The dent doesnt seem all that unreasonable if your using a soft lead bullet, I have this happen with some of my own cast bullets without issue, it maybe with diff bullet profiles semi-wad cutters like your it should have no ill effect..

    What are the bullets sized at .452, .454 ??? Are they your own cast??

    I usually run my 200gr lswc at 1.225" My p-14 eats up anything I put threw at it.
     
  3. tkendrick

    tkendrick Member

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    I think the "crud" in your pictures is most likely lead that has shaved off the base or sides of the bullet while it's being seated into the case mouth. It's hard to tell for sure.

    If that is the case, the solution should be fairly simple. Bell the case mouth a little more during your procedure.

    The bullet should start into the case mouth without the sides or base hanging up on the rim of the case.

    If that doesn't fix it, then take a look at your crimp. It may be that you are starting to crimp the case before the bullet is completely seatd, causing the case to dig in and shave the lead to the outside of the case. Easily fixed by adjusting your die and seating stem.

    Either of these would cause you to have to put more than average pressure on the nose of the bullet when seating, that's probably where the deformation you see on the nose comes from.

    Either problem will cause your round to not chamber completely.

    Actually, after looking again at the foto's, I think the crimp issue is more likely than the belling issue.

    Good luck
     
  4. Jumping Frog

    Jumping Frog Member

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    First, thank you for responding.

    No, each round was carefully and completely clean before being loaded into the magazine -- see the "clean picture".

    The crud was on the bullet AFTER the slide cycled and tried to load the round. I dropped the magazine, cleared the chamber, and that is how the cartridge came out full of crud.

    I repeat, there was no crud, lead shavings, or bullet lube on the round prior to attempted feeding.
    I am using the Lee Bullet seating die with the die screwed out three full turns so that it does not apply any crimp at all. On the next station, I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp and post-size the case.
    Thanks! I need it.
    The load chart has 10.4 start charge, 11.5 max charge. I was loading 10.6-10.7 gr. Bullets are sized at .452. Gun show purchase, not my own cast.
    Boy is it a relief to hear that! Guy at the gunshop today told me he has never been able to get his Para's to handle LSWC. I was wondering if it was a Para issue.
     
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    If that second round pictured was clean before chambering, then the chamber is full of crud. Try a faster powder to get a cleaner burn. I would suggest Clays, AA #2, WST, Competition, 700X, Red Dot or similar. I load 200 Gr SWC's at 1.260 to 1.265 O.A.L. and have great luck with them feeding well there.
     
  6. hotwheelz

    hotwheelz Member

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    I would try running a faster powder if you have any ex. titegroup, bullseye, red dot, . According to my load book a#7 is similar to Blue dot which is great for magnum { .357 , .44 } loads but maybe not so good for .45 Just a guess here tho I have never run either in a .45

    The crud on your bullets sure looks like unburned powder to me
     
  7. hotwheelz

    hotwheelz Member

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    Wow maybe I have learned a few things along the way if your haveing the same thought as me Walkalong:D:D:D
     
  8. Grandpa Shooter

    Grandpa Shooter Member

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    I have not been able to get 200 g LSWC to run in either of my match Colts' 175g run just fine. Any weight hardball are fine. I use either Accurate 5 or 9 and they do great.

    I have begun to think there is something really different about the 200's. My malfunctions were just like yours. Start to chamber and stop about a 1/4" shy of battery. I even went back and squeezed them down--No Go. I tried seating deeper---No Go. I finally gave up on them.
     
  9. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Grandpa Shooter,

    I load the 200gr LSWC (H&G-68 profile) for my 3" Kimber UC and haven't had a problem. I use 8.2 gr AA#5 and a COL of 1.25". Enough crimp to remove the belling. Mixed brass. Shoots to POA with the fixed sights. Looks like I've shot about 1,800 of 'em. Most of the bullets from Laser-Cast.
     
  10. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Could it be hard grease/lube from the cast bullets? Some of the new hard lubes need a heater when sizing bullets. I have seen even the soft lube build up in the chamber at times. The slow burning powder could mix with the hard grease on firing and cause this. ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2008
  11. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Sure looks like lead shavings to me!

    Try seating deeper to get the bullet shoulder further into the case.

    Your barrel may have a very sharp edge at the front of the chamber and is shaving lead off the bullet shoulder each time one goes into the chamber.

    rcmodel
     
  12. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Yes it does, from the tip of the bullet. Good call rcmodel.
     
  13. jfh

    jfh Member

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    So, to summarize--

    1. A good chamber cleaning--really good.

    2. Shorter LOA.

    3. Possibly a ramp job done by a competent 'smith (not homebrew), or--

    4. Give up on this brand of 200LSWCs.

    Jim H.
     
  14. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    The first "Clean round" picture shows a slight ridge of lead just in front of the case mouth on the right side.

    That will get squished off into the case as the round head-spaces in the chamber.

    It is caused by seating & taper-crimping in one operation.

    The bullet is getting lead shaved off on the final frogs-hair of seating depth after the crimp has closed up against it.

    You might try chamfering the insides of the cases, or seating in one operation, then crimping in another.

    Or just use your thumbnail and scrape it off as you inspect each round.

    rcmodel
     
  15. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Clearly a crimp problem. Seat in one operation, taper crimp in another.
     
  16. wally

    wally Member

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    Paras are sloppy in both the guns and the mags, most of my Para mags using lead SWC at 1.25" will bind in the magazine, I was using 1.26" in my Colt but had to go to 1.23" for the Para to work.

    If the above suggestions don't fix it, you may need a gunsmith to finish ream your chamber. But I'd investigate and solve the bullet nose lead shaving problem as the highest priority.

    My P14 and P13 are fine with lead SWC as long as the OAL is short enough to not bind in the magazine. Si I'd say their is hope.

    --wally.
     
  17. JDGray

    JDGray Member

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    The second and third pic looks like the bullet is seated crooked, hard to tell from just a pic. I like FMJ:)
     
  18. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    He said his rounds were clean before chambering, so I assumed he was not shaving lead seating the bullets, even though that is exactly what it looks like.

    He could be picking up lead shavings in the chamber, as rcmodel noted, mixed with unburned powder/residue.

    Either way, it's not condusive to chambering or accuracy.
     
  19. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    First problem is you have a bad powder bullet combination. AA7 is a slow burning powder for pistol (similar to Blue Dot in burn rate) and will not burn cleanly at .45 ACP pressures. For LSWC's which are generally considered target bullets you should be using a faster powder no slower than Unique or AA#5. W231, Bullseye, Red Dot, Grean Dot, AA#2, Clays, Tight Group are all appropriate powders for target loads.

    The second problem is you are not seating your bullet deep enough and either the bullets shoulder is hitting the rifling before the bullet can enter the chamber fully or its OAL is so tight in tolerance that the crud of unburned powder left in the chamber is backing the case out that fraction. Remove your barrel an drop in your reloaded rounds and see where the end of the round is compared to the barrel hood. Drop in a factory round and see how it sits. Your hand loads should fit the same. Ignore some arbitrary OAL and seat your bullets as shown in the picture below for best results.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. huntershooter

    huntershooter Member

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    Listen to Vern.
    Seat and taper crimp in seperate operations.
     
  21. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    jumping frog said "I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp and POST SIZE THE CASE." A standard taper crimp die is all that is needed. Why would you want to full length size a loaded round. There is a big difference in brass wall thickness from brass to brass. This mean a lead bullet is going to sometimes be made smaller in Diameter than it should be in the Lee die. As most have said, bell the case with the correct size expander, load the correct diameter bullet, seat the bullet without crimping, then taper crimp, not using a lee body die. Another good thiing to do is use brass of all the same lot and manufacture. This will give you better result and you will never wear out the brass, only loose it. When using mixed brass, you get a different crimp evertime, less important in a standard taper crimp die. But when you are Post body sizing in a Lee full body taper crimp die, itis NOt good. When setting up a standard taper crimp die, put the loaded round in the taper crimp station , ram all the way up, with the finished OAL you choose. Then hand turn the taper crimp die down till you feel it compress the brass into the bullet. This should give you a measurement close to .470" on the case mouth. As far as bullet diameter goes, some people dont even size a cast bullet, check the diameter, it should be .452" no bigger. When i cast, some bullets drop from the mould way to big, they MUST be sized. Any one that needs to use a Lee factory crimp dies that Post sizes is doing something wrong in the first place. When you buy cast bullets from an unknow maker, you never know what your getting. The bullet lube could be home made, the bullet could be unsized or to big or to small in diameter , the lead might be to soft.
     
  22. Wilburt

    Wilburt Member

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    In this thread i was having the same problem sorta. My chamber got dirty and left crud on the bullets, the nose of the round hit somewhere and made a slight chip, and i almost gave up on the 200 gr lswc.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=341349

    All i did was what huntershooter, Vern Humphrey, and others said. Well mostly, it was seat and crimp in two differant operations. Not sure how i fixed it but. Also my crimp was a little tight. I was at .469 and using VVN310 (very clean powder) and my chamber was really dirty. Went to .471 and chamber cleaned up a bit. :confused: Hope this helps.....

    So Grandpa Shooter maybe there's hope.
     
  23. Funderb

    Funderb Member

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    once again.
    lead bullets an automatic firearms
    DO NOT go together.
     
  24. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    That's not true at all.

    I have shot lead bullets in 1911's, S&W's, Glocks, SIG's, and any number of other guns for 40+ years.

    They work perfectly fine if you load them right.

    rcmodel
     
  25. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Well, millions of lead rounds downrange in auto's would disagree with you. ;)

    Whoops, we doubletapped him. :)
     
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