fallow up on Berry's 115grn 9mm RN DS

[cemjr]

I called Berry's mfg about specific load data for the 9mm 115grn RN DS plated bullet. I was requesting their recomended OAL. They refered to a guy that had all the answers to my questions, very nice guy too. I told him the powder I was using (Tite-Group) and he filled in all the blanks. OAL 1.135 , 4.1 to 4.5 grns. Thanks to all that responded to my original post, like this one,
"I load the berrys at 1.135 col on top of 4.5gn of titegroup. I have gotten 100% reliable feeding with this combination. My average velocity is 1069fps measured 15' from muzzle with my ruger p95. The factory winchester white box clocked in at an average velocity 1102fps. You might consider getting the lee reloading manual as it has load data for the plated bullets"

 

[MrOldLude]

Since there's little risk of overdriving the plating on a 115gr 9mm, you can safely substitute jacketed data for plated. Berry's have a 100% safe upper limit at 1200 FPS. People can and do regularly exceed 1200 in other rounds, but 1200 will always be reliable.

 

[LiveLife]

you can safely substitute jacketed data for plated

Not entirely. Berry's 9mm bullets are sized at .3555" (.356" effective) and I use lead load data or reduced jacketed load data for them.

From Berry's FAQ page:

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I've been using jacketed data with that bullet for about 10 years now with very good results. My loads are right up there at the top of the data and they work just fine and are accurate.

As MrOldLude pointed out, you're not going to overdrive that bullet in the 9x19. I have overdriven them in the 357 Sig, but never in the 9x19.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[evan price]

I would say that 4.5 is about the minimum I would load for that bullet. I want that to be around 1100 FPS in a 9mm with 115. I personally load 4.7 grains titegroup on a Hodgdon max of 4.8 grains.

 

[MrOldLude]

Also for reference:

The reason we ask everyone to start with a mid-range jacketed or lead load data is:

Hard Cast Data - Plated bullets have the same pressure curve as typical linotype hard cast bullet. The same powder charge with a hardcast or plated vs. a jacketed will result in lower velocities for the jacketed. This is because the jacket is a work hardened surface that has a greater resistance in the barrel.

Jacketed Midrange Data - Is a good starting point to work up data for since most of the shooters already have data for jacketed.

We also make a statement to keep the bullets loaded to no more than the 1200FPS mark. I have run our 155gr .40 bullets in my Tanfoglio Limited 10mm at velocities beyond that with great results. We just have to draw a line in the sand since people seem to push the drawn limits.

We have constantly improved our bullet profiles and have added plating as we have gone along over the past 8 or so years. I am hoping to finish testing in our tunnel to see if we can publish a greater fps with our current generation of bullets. As it is there are only a handful of commercially available calibers that would push any pistol bullet beyond 1300fps, and those are long barreled hunting pistols that would not use a plated bullet anyway.

Sorry if I rambled on, let me know if I left anyone dazed and confused

So fundamentally, it all boils down to velocity. Of course, I chrono hotter loads regardless.

 

[LiveLife]

MrOldLude, I think what Berry's MFG posted is applicable for experienced reloaders pushing the limits of published load data. And I would agree.

But this is "High Road" and there are many new reloaders who read THR and may take such statements like, "you can safely substitute jacketed data for plated" and indeed push the upper limits without knowing the dangers. There are plenty of websites and forums that post over-max jacketed load data (say 9mm major loads) without disclosing the necessary safety disclaimers and using those recipes with shorter OAL unknowingly may result in loads that may not be safe in their pistols. Chances are pushing the upper limits of published load data may end up being fine, but if a manufacturer posts precautionary warnings about their products, I tend to pass them on to new reloaders to practice by while recommending the use of latest published load data.

I think what they post on their FAQ page is sound as I found test loading their bullets that often mid range loads produce more accurate shot groups than near max loads.

When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. ... Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

 

[MrOldLude]

MrOldLude, I think what Berry's MFG posted is applicable for experienced reloaders pushing the limits of published load data. And I would agree.

But this is "High Road" and there are many new reloaders who read THR and may take such statements like, "you can safely substitute jacketed data for plated" and indeed push the upper limits without knowing the dangers.

Thank you pointing out the name of the website. I missed it on the way in.

That said, what I wrote was fairly explicit, and included appropriate velocity disclaimers. Much like there are inherent dangers to firing weapons, there also dangers to loading ammunition. Perhaps this entire subforum should be closed as THR and its members cannot control all aspects of safety of a novice or experienced reloader coming here for advice. We are manufacturing small explosive devices to drive kinetic masses at supersonic speeds.

If a person solely relies on the book and never reaches out to collect more information or knowledge, and never questions 'why' or 'how, then they are doomed to be ignorant forever.

But of course, it's always easier to hold someone's hand and say, "Go read your reloading manual."

 

[LiveLife]

MrOldLude, when I first joined THR, I was like you and posted how I loaded various components.

But I have seen some posts that made me go, "Wow, what some people new to reloading would do!!!???"

Believe me, we are on the same page, but the curiosity/adventurous nature of some reloaders ... oh my! So now I try to side on the safety for "public" posting and PM privately when some "real" information needs to be communicated.

 

[hans471]

I load plated Rainers by the thousands in 9mm. For me I stay "in the middle" on loading them. I just don't see any reason to push more powder in there to get 50 FPS more just to shoot at the range. The milder load is more accurate and is much easier on my firearm and me.

That said I have read that the plated bullets will do fine. The real problems I have read about were with the jacketed bullets with the open bottoms. Seems high pressure likes to get under that jacket and swell it out causing a pressure spike.

The fully jacketed or plated bullets should discourage this.

 

[LiveLife]

jacketed bullets with the open bottoms. Seems high pressure likes to get under that jacket and swell it out causing a pressure spike.

The FMJ bullets with exposed lead base were meant to expand and push the jacketing tight against the rifling of the bore from the hot expanding gas when ignited powder burns. This is called obturation - bumping of the base of the bullet.

Yes, this sealing of the bullet base to barrel reduces the escaping of hot gas around the bullet and increases the chamber pressure for more consistent powder burn. More consistent chamber pressure translates to consistent shot groups and increased accuracy.

How about jacketed hollow point bullets with no exposed base? The hard jacketing makes it harder for the base of the bullet to expand and more hot gas will escape around the bullet, reducing chamber pressure. To maintain the chamber pressure, many published load data for JHP bullet will show higher powder charge than same weight FMJ/lead bullets. To compensate for more escaping gas around the bullet, increased powder charge is used and to accommodate more powder in the case, you may also see longer OAL than typical depending on the powder type used (denser ball powder vs less dense flake powder).

The fully jacketed or plated bullets should discourage this.

Actually, you want all the bullets to obturate when you fire for more consistent chamber pressure and increased accuracy. In the past, I have wondered why some bullet manufacturers use open lead base JHP bullets instead of the typical JHP bullets with jacketed bullet base. If they are trying to generate better obturating bullet for increased accuracy, they may.

Some bullet manufacturers concave the base of the jacketed/plated bullet to help with obturation. My 40S&W Montana Gold FMJ bullets with exposed lead base are flat but MG JHP bullets have concave base. The 40S&W Rainier plated bullets also have concave base.

As to why Berry's website posts "Do not exceed mid range loads", since this thread pertains to Berry's 115 gr 9mm RN bullet, let's use this bullet caliber/weight as an example. Here's the current published load data from Hodgdon's website:

115 GR. LRN Hodgdon Titegroup .356" (diameter) 1.100" (OAL) Max 4.3 gr (1151 fps) 30,500 CUP

115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon Titegroup .355" (diameter) 1.125" (OAL) Max 4.8 gr (1158 fps) 30,500 CUP

Montana Gold FMJ RN and Rainier Ballistics plated RN are both published as .355" for the bullet diameter. Berry's MFG lists .356" (Berry's MFG has posted previously on THR that their bullets are sized more around .3555"). Like a .356" hard cast lead bullet, the larger diameter bullet will seal tighter against the barrel while requiring less powder charge to produce more consistent chamber pressure. For me, accuracy is everything and more consistent chamber pressure translates to more consistent shot groups. You'll note that 4.3 gr of powder charge for .356" diameter LRN bullet at 1.100" OAL is generating the same chamber pressure of 30,500 CUP as the 4.8 gr gr powder charge for .355" diameter GDHP bullet at 1.125" OAL. Using max load data of 4.8 gr for the .356" diameter Berry's plated bullet will probably generate higher chamber pressure.

Perhaps for this reason, Berry's MFG is posting the caution to not exceed mid range load data for jacketed bullets.

If you are curious, here's an article on cast bullet obturation.