Falujah Redux - Contractors killed, one burned alive.

[shootinstudent]

Current situation: we fight them with hands tied behind our backs and Europeans criticise.

My advise: untie hands, take off gloves, and win the war. Europeans criticise.

My opinion: it's already been tried several times by major powers in the 20th century and is a proven failure. We "take off the gloves", we turn Iraq into a repeat of the USSR's time in Afghanistan and the rest of central asia, or alternatively the French attempt at retaining Vietnam. We spend billions slaughtering the innocent alongside the terrorists, and in return, we prove to the world that we are just another bump in a long series of brutal imperial powers.

In sum, though some people think this kind of "kill them all and let them fear us!" will do us good...it is actually a proven formula for losing.

 

[LAR-15]

The world hates us anyway.

The only thing you can do with a mad dog is kill it.

 

[shootinstudent]

The world hates us anyway.

The only thing you can do with a mad dog is kill it.

The Russians tried it. Same attitude with more brutality. Sure didn't work for them....so why again for us?

 

[R.H. Lee]

You 'nuke em all' proponents don't seem to undertand we're not at war with the government of Iraq. There is no basis, legally, ethically, morally or otherwise to lay waste to the country. We're there by 'invitation' dontcha know. That said, there is no compelling national security interest to justify our military presence there. And although lives lost do not justify forfeiting future lives, withdrawal is not an option either. It's a sticky situation, by George.

 

[El Rojo]

Ah, someone gets it! Well said RH Lee.

 

[Shalako]

So we keep the status quo and fight man to man in the streets because heavy artillery will make more people mad.

What do you do when they set off a dirty bomb or WMD in our country?

What do you do when they do it again?

and again?

and again?

etc.

Do you ever believe in taking the gloves off, or should we always go man to man until the last man?

 

[Faithless]

I personally feel Iraq was FUBAR'd beyond repair when the Iraqi military was disbanded and other state industries were denationalised.

Quick and dirty elections and some bases would have been better than trying to create a capitalist island in the Middle East. Better to have your own idiots mess things up, than have foreigners doing it.

But that’s in the past. I expect that the US military will slowly be withdrawn from Iraq over a number of years leaving a skeleton garrison of troops and contractors to keep some firebases open and running.

Probably the best that can be hoped for Iraq is some kind of oligarchy like in present day Russia.

 

[SIGarmed]

So what you're saying, SIGarmed, is that the most powerful high tech military in the history of the world, after spending several hundred billion dollars and two thousand American lives (not to mention the tens of thousands wounded and maimed), we're beginning to prevail against a ragtag third world group of thugs using low tech weapons????

No, actually that is what you're saying. I wrote and posted what I did.

They are not wininng, not even close. It is only the media and those that wish us to fail, who distort reality that say otherwise.

 

[El Rojo]

Do you ever believe in taking the gloves off, or should we always go man to man until the last man?

Killing insurgents is just a slap on the wrist? We are killing insurgents. We are going on patrols and taking it to the enemy. Just because there aren't pictures on TV that show us bombing women and children doesn't mean we aren't killing the bad guys. We are not going "man to man" as you like to say. We are going a lot of our men, gunships, tanks, and attack aircraft to their few men. Our troops are not stupid. They use overwhelming firepower and numbers for maximum effect. What so many people on this message board seem to want is not only maximum force, but maximum force on entire populations. That simply doesn't make sense. You don't kill innocent people because they are around guilty people. I didn't say associate, I said around. That is what many of you are advocating. That makes as much sense as we need to punish all gun owners/dealers so they can give up the gun owners/dealers who are bad. Punish everyone for the acts of the few. Brilliant logic.

 

[Fletchette]

You 'nuke em all' proponents don't seem to undertand we're not at war with the government of Iraq.

Er, I did not advocate nuking anything. Read my post again, lest I quote myself again.

We have the tactical as well as strategic advantage. We should blockade areas where insurgents are and not let in any supplies. We should accept those who wish to surrender and we should assume that those who don't are insurgents or supporters, and level the place.

If we don't have the stomach for that, then we will not win any wars...

...something to think about before getting into one.

 

[LAR-15]

We need to pull out now and let civil war errupt ala Dennis Kucinich's idea

 

[Joejojoba111]

BUT, we could have swept them off the face of the planet if we wanted to. The reason they are still fighting is that world won't stand for us annihilating them unilaterally. SO, we have to sit back and let them poke us in the eye and taunt us when we could squash them if we were so inclined.

We will have to go house to house instead and take casualties. That seems the only way popular opinion will allow. Fighting them with both hands tied behind our back.

Testosterone or not, that is the truth.

"Conquest is easy, control is not."

Star Trek, The Wrath of Khan.


Sums it up. Whoever it was that told you Iraq would be easy to pacify, they lied. Simple as that. And it's your own fault for believing them. That's all.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[shootinstudent]

We have the tactical as well as strategic advantage. We should blockade areas where insurgents are and not let in any supplies. We should accept those who wish to surrender and we should assume that those who don't are insurgents or supporters, and level the place.

If we don't have the stomach for that, then we will not win any wars...

...something to think about before getting into one.

This tactic has already been tried. It's what the Russians did to Grozny and other Chechen centers....look how successful that's been.

I agree with R.H. and El Rojo on this one. The only sure result of levelling whole cities will be that the world will have proof to back up the now-rumors that the US just wants to bomb the whole world. Any other strategic/whatever benefit that might follow is almost certain not to guarantee long term success, based on all the other such operations this past century.

 

[LAR-15]

Just keep the oil pipelines in tact and do what you want!

It's all about oil.

We finish pumping it and we're gone

 

[joab]

I'm a big fan of the Iron Fist in a Velvet Glove Approach

Beat your enemy to the point of submission then help him up.
That approach has served us well in the past.

Then, from some probably long forgotten war or campaign, there's my grandfather's suggestion.

The Biscuts or Bullets method

We got biscuts and we got bullets.
You can have as many of one or the other as you want.
And we have more of either than you could possibly want

 

[R.H. Lee]

Just keep the oil pipelines in tact and do what you want!

It's all about oil.

We finish pumping it and we're gone

Sounds good to me. When do we start?

 

[mrrev]

Good points RH.

Well, there's no easy solution. Just reading this tread gives me the feeling, *** happen . . . . . . . hope you have some smarter guys next time around to figure this one out . . . . . and that's it.

 

[Joey2]

Iraq has a lot of simularities with our and the French conduct of the Vietnam War.

The French patrolled during the day and holed up in their forts during the night. The Viet Minh came out at night and mined the roads, collected the rice tax, and terrorized the population that did not go along with them. When the sun came up they melted back into the jungle, village, farm, etc.

The Americans came along patrolled day and night, initiated civic action programs, trained the South Vietnamese to defend their own villages and basically stand on their own two feet.

Along comes the South Vietnamese government administrators and army and undo what the U.S. was doing. The corrupt South Vietnamese government mistreated and cheated their own people to the point that it was better for them to give aid and support to the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong.

The U.S.'s hands were tied by politics. We could of won the war, not through arms, but through teaching the Vietnamese that they could do more for themselves and not have to put up with governmental corruption.

The changes should of started from the top down. What we are doing now in Iraq, just like we did in Vietnam, is create future terrorists. The enemy loves it when we abuse the people because this drives them to their side.

 

[cbsbyte]

q

 

[SIGarmed]

Iraq has a lot of simularities with our and the French conduct of the Vietnam War.

The French patrolled during the day and holed up in their forts during the night. The Viet Minh came out at night and mined the roads, collected the rice tax, and terrorized the population that did not go along with them. When the sun came up they melted back into the jungle, village, farm, etc.

The Americans came along patrolled day and night, initiated civic action programs, trained the South Vietnamese to defend their own villages and basically stand on their own two feet.

Along comes the South Vietnamese government administrators and army and undo what the U.S. was doing. The corrupt South Vietnamese government mistreated and cheated their own people to the point that it was better for them to give aid and support to the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong.

The U.S.'s hands were tied by politics. We could of won the war, not through arms, but through teaching the Vietnamese that they could do more for themselves and not have to put up with governmental corruption.

The changes should of started from the top down. What we are doing now in Iraq, just like we did in Vietnam, is create future terrorists. The enemy loves it when we abuse the people because this drives them to their side.

The ones that are abusing are the terrorists that are targeting the local population. This is not Vietnam. It never was and it never will be. The terrorists are helping the population side with the United States.