Bobson
Member
Interesting idea. Easy to see it working well, too. In all fairness though, I'm no self-defense or knife expert, so I may be overlooking something.
Faster than any switchblade.
- Thread starter Owen Sparks
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"can" and will be able to in a serious furball are two remotely different things. I've seen the trick done, but the admonition was that it is an iffy proposition and simple gross motor skills of indexing the thumb and opening are more dependable.
AStone
Member
Just curious to see where this one goes ... 
Gordon
Member
I tink a nasty OTF like my Dalton is faster out than any thing you can manipulate. The Dalton (at least) fires hard enough to penetrate up against clothes FTIW.
No, the wave can be faster than any other non fixed blade knife drawn from the pocket because it can deploy when drawn without having to follow the draw by hitting a button, but it has its weaknesses.
Here's something I caught in training footage:
That's a Spyderco P'Kal, which has the most reliable wave-opening device I've ever tried (it's a thin, longish pin). Yes, it's being opened by the "bad guy." In this screen-shot it's mid-opening, about to lock out without Blue having to do anything else (the frame captured it mid-motion). It's not THAT implausible that someone else could grab a waved knife from your pocket and have it deploy.
Blue was able to use the knife on Grey.
(The Simunitions gun on the ground belonged to Grey - the guy picking it up is Southnarc, the instructor, but could have easily been any bystander in "real life.")
For those who haven't tried the P'kal out, I'd have to say give it a try - it's probably the single best-designed fighting folder, in my opinion. (Tough, purpose built/dedicated, very effective deployment method, ridiculously nasty blade profile and ergos optimized for VERY close quarters.)
That's a Spyderco P'Kal, which has the most reliable wave-opening device I've ever tried (it's a thin, longish pin). Yes, it's being opened by the "bad guy." In this screen-shot it's mid-opening, about to lock out without Blue having to do anything else (the frame captured it mid-motion). It's not THAT implausible that someone else could grab a waved knife from your pocket and have it deploy.
Blue was able to use the knife on Grey.
(The Simunitions gun on the ground belonged to Grey - the guy picking it up is Southnarc, the instructor, but could have easily been any bystander in "real life.")
For those who haven't tried the P'kal out, I'd have to say give it a try - it's probably the single best-designed fighting folder, in my opinion. (Tough, purpose built/dedicated, very effective deployment method, ridiculously nasty blade profile and ergos optimized for VERY close quarters.)
The other admonition should be that you will tear up your partners' shirts when practicing it
.I've certainly made that work, as well, but it still requires that pressure/speed/range-of-motion combination that ain't always possible when rolling. I really do like the wave feature, but it's not a 100% thing for me - and becomes even less so in a tangle.
It is an interesting feature, but it is important to always keep in mind that interesting features don't always result in a folder with the blade securely locked open. It is equally important to know how to deal with such a failure to lock open to not loose any time when fractions of a second can count.
saltydog452
Member
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- Aug 1, 2004
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I drank the Emerson kool-aide and bought the Commander set up for left hand carry/presentation.
Its a pocket full and then some, and, for me, doesn't carry nearly as well as its Colt nameake.
The Kershaw Blur suits me way better.
Realistically, the off hand pocket knife is used for opening stuff that my atrhritic fingers have trouble doing, digging out a splinter occasionally, trimming off a busted fingernail, and contributing to my overall 'warm and fuzzy' happy attitude.
salty
Its a pocket full and then some, and, for me, doesn't carry nearly as well as its Colt nameake.
The Kershaw Blur suits me way better.
Realistically, the off hand pocket knife is used for opening stuff that my atrhritic fingers have trouble doing, digging out a splinter occasionally, trimming off a busted fingernail, and contributing to my overall 'warm and fuzzy' happy attitude.
salty
salty,
Owen Sparks is just carrying the knife with that feature just for the defensive use, not any utility application. That's why the lock open on draw feature is so important to him. It isn't an EDC to him as much as a defensive weapon.
Owen Sparks is just carrying the knife with that feature just for the defensive use, not any utility application. That's why the lock open on draw feature is so important to him. It isn't an EDC to him as much as a defensive weapon.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Reading these threads makes me want to call Smokey MT Knifeworks and make an order.
Since we're hitting on tools, techniques (and tactics?) here, I was going to post some thoughts on the wave opener vs. others, so I went and grabbed my two EDC's for comparison... I tried drawing and opening both the Balisong, and my thumb-opened axis-lock Benchmade. And a couple of points stuck with me.
In an emergency situation, once the spidey senses have gone off, my hand is in pocket and I'm gripping the knife. With the Bali, I've already squeezed & unlatched (spring-latch), and with the folder, my thumb is on the stud. With either, I've got a "draw-grip" on the knife, and I've already pulled it up enough that the pocket clip, and most of my hand is out of the pocket, ready to deploy. I've had to do this in response to a threat before, and is also standard practice in shady places...
*But doing this in a hurry sucks. Hopefully the situation will allow enough time to get to this point before needing to deploy, but we don't get to choose the situation. Hopefully we've just been aware enough to afford ourselves some time.
*...And if I have to run, I want that blade CLOSED! I'm not sure if the wave will cause a problem when drawing the knife from the pocket while trying to keep the blade closed - Owen Sparks and others, maybe you can fill us in on that part.
*And the last part of my considerations on defensive knives... If I ever do come close enough to NEED to pull that blade and fight, I just hope I'm caught up on my prayers and tithes, because all bets are off at that point. Seriously, I'm no fighter - certainly not knife fighter - so in a close quarters scuffle, The Allmighty Himself would be the only thing keeping me alive through that scenario. So in summary, I don't think the tool will matter a whole lot by that point. Hopefully I'll never find myself close to that situation...
In an emergency situation, once the spidey senses have gone off, my hand is in pocket and I'm gripping the knife. With the Bali, I've already squeezed & unlatched (spring-latch), and with the folder, my thumb is on the stud. With either, I've got a "draw-grip" on the knife, and I've already pulled it up enough that the pocket clip, and most of my hand is out of the pocket, ready to deploy. I've had to do this in response to a threat before, and is also standard practice in shady places...
*But doing this in a hurry sucks. Hopefully the situation will allow enough time to get to this point before needing to deploy, but we don't get to choose the situation. Hopefully we've just been aware enough to afford ourselves some time.
*...And if I have to run, I want that blade CLOSED! I'm not sure if the wave will cause a problem when drawing the knife from the pocket while trying to keep the blade closed - Owen Sparks and others, maybe you can fill us in on that part.
*And the last part of my considerations on defensive knives... If I ever do come close enough to NEED to pull that blade and fight, I just hope I'm caught up on my prayers and tithes, because all bets are off at that point. Seriously, I'm no fighter - certainly not knife fighter - so in a close quarters scuffle, The Allmighty Himself would be the only thing keeping me alive through that scenario. So in summary, I don't think the tool will matter a whole lot by that point. Hopefully I'll never find myself close to that situation...
Bobson
Member
Feeding off of JAshley's post here:
Been following this thread, and had very similar questions/thoughts that, for whatever reason, I hadn't been able to think of asking. Basically, if I'm getting the point of your post, is what exactly is the "best" system for a SD folder? Balisong? Wave? Spyderco-type thumbhole? Something else?
I know "best" varies greatly, but for those who would really rather not buy several different types of knives just to test them... what's the solution? I know thumbhole knives are super popular, but the thumbhole system just isn't effective for me. Almost every time I'm in a shop that has knives, I try them, and its very awkward and slow for me.
Been following this thread, and had very similar questions/thoughts that, for whatever reason, I hadn't been able to think of asking. Basically, if I'm getting the point of your post, is what exactly is the "best" system for a SD folder? Balisong? Wave? Spyderco-type thumbhole? Something else?
I know "best" varies greatly, but for those who would really rather not buy several different types of knives just to test them... what's the solution? I know thumbhole knives are super popular, but the thumbhole system just isn't effective for me. Almost every time I'm in a shop that has knives, I try them, and its very awkward and slow for me.
There's no requirement to use the wave feature when you want to get a knife out of your pocket. You simple pivot it slightly to not catch on the back of your pocket or you move the knife slightly forward so the wave doesn't catch on your pocket.
There isn't any "best" self defense folder opening technique. You should use a method that uses gross motor skills instead of fine motor manipulation. Some folks advocate a "pop" or momentum opening method, others the wave, while others like the axis because you can pop them open easily by relieving the pressure on the lock and the pinch/pop for hole in the blades is another favorite for fast opening. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but the thing to remember is to use gross motor skills.
There isn't any "best" self defense folder opening technique. You should use a method that uses gross motor skills instead of fine motor manipulation. Some folks advocate a "pop" or momentum opening method, others the wave, while others like the axis because you can pop them open easily by relieving the pressure on the lock and the pinch/pop for hole in the blades is another favorite for fast opening. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but the thing to remember is to use gross motor skills.
Gordon
Member
Waaay back in the mid 70s I developed a unique opening system that I thought was bad arse. It certainly backed off multiple attackers on a couple occasions: I wrapped a 30" piece of para cord from the thong hole on my Puma Game Warden to braided leather wrist loop . The Puma lock blade was carefully wrapped from the thong hole to the top and placed in my right jeans pocket with the braided leather loop hanging out . By slipping the leather loop thru my hand I could pull out the wrapped knife and sling it towards an adversary . It would all ways snap open (and these Game Wardens are NOT easy open knives) and I would whirl it around giving me a 6 foot diameter danger zone. Since this was more psychological (I was in Psy-ops in the Reserves) in it's effect by the 80s I discontinued such flashy effects to settle on the old prison pumping that seems to be so effective in real life.
Just thought I'd share esoterica !
Just thought I'd share esoterica !AABEN
Member
Why bring a knife to a gun fight?
Bobson
Member
Because I have zero real-world combat experience, and only limited training in self-defense, and it still isn't difficult to come up with a number of scenarios in which defending oneself with a knife (rather than a gun) would be easier, faster, and more effective in terms of weapon retention.
DaisyCutter
Member
You can always go with a gun in one hand and the knife in the other.
I double up all the time. Last night I used a Glock 22 w/light in my left hand and my M26 Taser w/ laser in my right. I told the runner to put his hands behind his back, he complied, I holstered my Glock, snapped the first cuff on, holstered the Taser, and snapped the second cuff.
It's very unorthodox, because the Taser is officially meant only when there's 2 or more officers, but I rarely have another unit available when I effect an arrest. I have 2 hands.
I work in a nasty barrio, and I project an overwhelming threat of force because I don't want to use any force. I get the cuffs on while they are still trying to calculate their fight chances and escape options, and before I lose that initiative.
Whether you are in a defensive or offensive (I'm apprehending someone) situation, IMO the projection of an overwhelming threat of force often makes makes actual use of force unnecessary. So I project as much force as possible when force may be needed.
If you think you may need to use legal force, and you have a gun, then draw. The knife is a deadly weapon, so you are already statutorily at lethal force once you deploy the knife. Sticking someone is charged or not-charged the same as shooting someone. Sell it to the bad guy, make sure he knows you're committed. Hopefully, he disengages and you can move to safety before he potentially re-engages.
As far as knives go, a $230 Emerson won't deploy faster than a $40 KaBar TDI. The TDI is more rugged, simpler, and IMO it's grip angle is optimized for retention. It slashes and stabs exceptionally well. I can use it blind or disoriented. I carry a TDI on my support side, partially concealed, on duty. I don't carry it off duty, I'm going straight to gun if lethal force comes into play off duty.
I've never deployed the TDI against a human. If someone attempts to handle my duty weapon, then I'm sawing their hand off with the TDI. If someone immobilizes me, then I'm perforating them with either the gun or the TDI. I'm also prepared to articulate how a 300lb'er straddling and thumping me puts me in reasonable apprehension of death. I also have a police agency backing me, a policy that requires only "reasonable action" and prepaid lawyer(s) on call 24/7.
If you have a gun and a knife, and are involved in a lethal force encounter, I'd say deploy the gun in most scenarios.
A switchblade is no more dangerous than any other knife, it simply carries a nastier image and greater projection of force due to that image. IMO, no would-be attacker will read "Emerson" on the side of anyone's blade and be $240 worth of impressed.
I double up all the time. Last night I used a Glock 22 w/light in my left hand and my M26 Taser w/ laser in my right. I told the runner to put his hands behind his back, he complied, I holstered my Glock, snapped the first cuff on, holstered the Taser, and snapped the second cuff.
It's very unorthodox, because the Taser is officially meant only when there's 2 or more officers, but I rarely have another unit available when I effect an arrest. I have 2 hands.
I work in a nasty barrio, and I project an overwhelming threat of force because I don't want to use any force. I get the cuffs on while they are still trying to calculate their fight chances and escape options, and before I lose that initiative.
Whether you are in a defensive or offensive (I'm apprehending someone) situation, IMO the projection of an overwhelming threat of force often makes makes actual use of force unnecessary. So I project as much force as possible when force may be needed.
If you think you may need to use legal force, and you have a gun, then draw. The knife is a deadly weapon, so you are already statutorily at lethal force once you deploy the knife. Sticking someone is charged or not-charged the same as shooting someone. Sell it to the bad guy, make sure he knows you're committed. Hopefully, he disengages and you can move to safety before he potentially re-engages.
As far as knives go, a $230 Emerson won't deploy faster than a $40 KaBar TDI. The TDI is more rugged, simpler, and IMO it's grip angle is optimized for retention. It slashes and stabs exceptionally well. I can use it blind or disoriented. I carry a TDI on my support side, partially concealed, on duty. I don't carry it off duty, I'm going straight to gun if lethal force comes into play off duty.
I've never deployed the TDI against a human. If someone attempts to handle my duty weapon, then I'm sawing their hand off with the TDI. If someone immobilizes me, then I'm perforating them with either the gun or the TDI. I'm also prepared to articulate how a 300lb'er straddling and thumping me puts me in reasonable apprehension of death. I also have a police agency backing me, a policy that requires only "reasonable action" and prepaid lawyer(s) on call 24/7.
If you have a gun and a knife, and are involved in a lethal force encounter, I'd say deploy the gun in most scenarios.
A switchblade is no more dangerous than any other knife, it simply carries a nastier image and greater projection of force due to that image. IMO, no would-be attacker will read "Emerson" on the side of anyone's blade and be $240 worth of impressed.
JimStC
Member
DC,
Your post is one of the best. Thanks for your insight and sharing your experience. I can learn from those.
Jim
Your post is one of the best. Thanks for your insight and sharing your experience. I can learn from those.
Jim
Gordon
Member
I've actually watched (from 1000 yards+) Daisy Cutters clear an LZ. A beautiful sight sonny!
AStone
Member
AABEN,
Read a few threads here in NFW and some of the ones in STT and you'll have your answer.
Read a few threads here in NFW and some of the ones in STT and you'll have your answer.
AABEN, did you see the guy in the pic who got his gun disarmed in a training scenario?
To be fair the guy who did that and took his folding knife out of his pocket was a highly trained federal agent but to also be fair, there are highly trained criminals.
A backup weapon that's small flat and deadly isn't a bad idea by any stretch.
To be fair the guy who did that and took his folding knife out of his pocket was a highly trained federal agent but to also be fair, there are highly trained criminals.
A backup weapon that's small flat and deadly isn't a bad idea by any stretch.
Guys,
Let's not drift too far away from the OP's topic, please.
Looks like we could revive a fixed blade equivalent for a small dedicated defensive knife thread (which I just did).
Let's not drift too far away from the OP's topic, please.
Looks like we could revive a fixed blade equivalent for a small dedicated defensive knife thread (which I just did
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