Father to Son Transfer - Father Lives Out of State - Requirements?

[Phoenix_III]

Father Lives in Utah
Son lives in Pennsylvania
Transfer to occur Face-To-Face
Collection includes handguns and long-guns, all are legal in each state

Do any or all have to go through an FFL? Father can travel and do Face to Face transfer, does not have to ship independently.

I believe PA law allows this, but doesn't it some how cause a problem federally? I've read too much silliness on the internet in the last hour, what's the real answer here?

 

[Packman]

I think they have to be transferred through an FFL. That said, if it's a family gun and you hadn't asked, who'd have known? Unless PA has a registration requirement, anyway.

 

[Phoenix_III]

Now we all know registration is illegal.

PA has NO registration requirements. You can move in or move out and not have to tell anyone.

My only concern would be

1) If there is ever a theft or fire [would have serial #s down, but I need to say I own them, first]

2) Unlikely but use in self defense, or trouble at a gun range (LEO wants to see the arms for some reason)


I would have a log of what was given to me in the transfer, and signed, for my records.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Here are the ATF rules:


B. UNLICENSED PERSONS


(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Shipping options:


(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]


A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]



(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]


Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

 

[Phoenix_III]

That doesn't address transfer of ownership between family.

Does that mean the fed doesn't care? (doubtful)

 

[Solo Flyer]

That doesn't address transfer of ownership between family.

Does that mean the fed doesn't care? (doubtful)

The sames rules apply.You need an FFL.
You're residents of 2 different states.

 

[brickeyee]

That doesn't address transfer of ownership between family.

Yes it does.
It applies to everyone.

You CANNOT transfer ANY firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

For long arms the FFL can be in either state, for handguns the FFL MUST be in the recipients state.

 

[bigjohnson]

All modern firearms... rifles, pistols, and shotguns, must go through an FFL when being transferred from the resident of one state to the resident of another. A DEALER can transfer a long gun to a resident of any other state, as long as the sale complies with the laws of both the state where the dealer has his shop AND the laws of the state where the buyer resides. But this is not the case where the person making the transfer is an "unlicensed individual".

 

[REOIV]

Legally its a no go.

For all intents and purposes the ATF will have a very hard time getting a conviction on it, as I would be very willing to bet any DA would drop that case in a heartbeat. Why go after law abiding citizens for a non violent crime when it is legal for both parties to own the items in question in their respective states?

That said you could temporarily 'loan' the firearms as they never specify what 'temporary' means. Temporary could mean you get to own them until the next time your father visits, which then he temporarily loans them to you again rinse & repeat.

 

[bigjohnson]

Well, the DA may "drop" the case, but ATF will have seized the guns, and I'd bet a dollar to a donut hole that the owner would never get them back. ATF stands for "Always Think Forfeiture".
Additionally, a "loan" of a firearm legally constitutes a transfer, unless the person making the loan maintains constructive possession of the weapon. What this means is that the loaner remains in the immediate vicinity of the gun until it is returned. Like you and I go to the range, and I let you shoot my Smith & Wesson Model 76. As long as I remain with you at the range, there is no transfer. But if I let you take it home for a couple of months, that's a transfer, pure and simple.

 

[Phil Lee]

I suspect the requirements to transfer between people living in different states cannot sustain a challenge in court unless commerce is involved. That is, if the father, in this case, is selling a gun to the son, that is interstate commerce.

What if the father is giving the gun? No commerce no power to regulate commerce, is there?

I've never heard of a case where someone has been prosecuted for giving a gun to another person not disqualified to possess the gun by state or federal law. Have any of you?

 

[Phoenix_III]

Intra-State Long Arm Transfer = Legal in PA (as long as you have no reason to believe they would not be elligible to obtain it from an FFL)

Inter-State Long Arm Transfer = Requires FFL (I believe)

Intra/InterState Handgun Tran = Requires FFL (Unless C&R, but let's not even go there!)


Hmm, my old FFL in PA would tack on like an extra $5 per gun transferred...

Though I do like the 'loan'/temporary thing (my dad is going to Nomad for awhile), and when he passes in 30 years, then I inherit.

Thanks guys.

 

[riverdog]

Some questions are best left unasked.

 

[Bookworm]

Transferring a long gun in PA doesn't require a FFL.

Ordinarily, the transfer of a handgun would, but an immediate relative may give the handgun as a gift without need for a FFL.

The original poster stated they were to be transferred in person, therefore they are not being "shipped" at all. Since PA doesn't require registration, I don't see how the ATF, or whatever, would ever become an issue anyhow.

 

[Phoenix_III]

Bookworm,

"Transferring a long gun in PA doesn't require a FFL. I just posted that.

Ordinarily, the transfer of a handgun would, but an immediate relative may give the handgun as a gift without need for a FFL. No one seems to agree on that...

The original poster stated they were to be transferred in person, therefore they are not being "shipped" at all. Since PA doesn't require registration, I don't see how the ATF, or whatever, would ever become an issue anyhow. I stated in the unlikely scenarios outlined in this thread.

 

[rdalrymple]

Some questions are best left unasked.

We have a winner!

 

[brickeyee]

Ordinarily, the transfer of a handgun would, but an immediate relative may give the handgun as a gift without need for a FFL. No one seems to agree on that...

Intra-state follows the STATE's laws.

Across state lines requires an FFL for ANY firearm.
It does not matter if the gun is a gift.
You are transferring ownership of a firearm across state line.

The law may be stupid.
It might not stand up to a challenge (got a few hundred thousand dollars to save maybe a few hundred on an FFL?).

But it remains the law, and felony convictions and continued firearm ownership are a bad combination.

 

[Phoenix_III]

Brickeye, but the case in point is that it is inside the state, he (father) just happens to be an out of state resident.


But I suppose FFL is best... :banghead:

 

[brickeyee]

Brickeye, but the case in point is that it is inside the state, he (father) just happens to be an out of state resident.


But I suppose FFL is best..

"best?"
Try required since the transfer is across state lines.

Father Lives in Utah
Son lives in Pennsylvania

Simply being in Pa does NOT change the fathers place of residence.
You cannot take a gun to another state and transfer its ownership legally without using an FFL.
There is the SINGLE exception for a bequeathed gun from an estate, but it sounds like dad is still alive and kicking in Utah.

Transferring a long gun in PA doesn't require a FFL.

Ordinarily, the transfer of a handgun would, but an immediate relative may give the handgun as a gift without need for a FFL.

The original poster stated they were to be transferred in person, therefore they are not being "shipped" at all. Since PA doesn't require registration, I don't see how the ATF, or whatever, would ever become an issue anyhow.

 

[bigjohnson]

Why would you even take the chance?

It's clearly a violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for a non-resident of PA to transfer a ANY firearm to a resident of PA without going through a FFL.

If you get caught making such transfer, you face the possibility of a $250,000 fine, and up to 10 years in jail. If you're lucky, you get probation, lose all your guns FOREVER, and still have to pay a whopping big lawyer's fee.

It ain't worth it, man.

 

[Kingcreek]

"Son, I am loaning you these guns for as long as I am alive. Upon my death, they are yours as directed in my will."
I am not an attorney and I don't know if that satisfies the ATF but I am in the mood to keep things simple today. I also like riverdog's reply.

 

[countertop]

Some questions are best left unasked.

+1

Seriously. I think your making a mountain out of a molehill.

As far as the estate thing goes, they aren't really being transferred to you by one person or another. At their death, they become yours (and in theory, they may have been yours prior to death). And who is to say they were or were not yours in the first place . . . . or that YOUR FATHER GAVE THEM to you when you were domiciled in Utah (or where ever).

And your concerns are pretty far fetched - well, the defensive use one isn't (but that won't go anywhere either) but no one at the range in Pennsylvania is going to question you on the guns.

 

[btg3]

Wait Phoenix_III, don't you remember?. You already gave these guns to your son while he was still a resident of UT. Your son is just picking up what's already his and taking it with him to PA. Right??? Remember???

 

[Grey_Mana]

Transfer the guns intrastate. State laws are intentionally vague about what constitutes residency. IMO - want to screw over out-of-state students on tutition, keep as much power as they can over taxpayers who leave, and cut breaks to illegal immigrants. However,

Step 1. Father legally travels to PA with firearms.
Step 2. Father becomes a legal resident of PA - by spending at least 1 night not homeless. Either legally residing in a hotel or at this son't place.
Optional Step 3. Get a government-issued ID. Easiest is a library card. Check the library's website - you might need to plan ahead and get some mail delivered to you. Many federal agencies provide literature for free or a small fee, and they'll mail you official federal mail to you at your residence.
Mandatory Step 3. Call a PA govenment office, and get confirmation about what you need to do to become a resident or dual resident. Probably best not to mention gun transfers. You might be interested in what free services PA would provide to you (e.g. County Health, Medicare, etc).
Step 4. Legal intrastate transfer.

For example, PA's official list of how to document residency is here:
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/pub195us.pdf (page 2, list B).

 

[brickeyee]

(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

BATFE has seen you coming.
It is NOT the states standards for residency that matter, but the federal standards.
While the IRS has interest in defining residency, recognition for tax purposes is not necessarily the same as for firearm purposes.
BATFE can define their own residency rules, tests, etc.