Fausti - Do they really "make guns to a price point"?

[Grey Morel]

I hear this kind of statement a lot: "So and so makes guns to a price point" of "the Walmart versions are of lower quality".

It seems idiotic to me that a company who puts out good products one day would screw up their machining and tell their workers to cut corners just because they are making something under contract, or for another distributor. Is this really true?

Specifically my question is regarding the newer Marlin Double Guns, and the current Weatherby double guns. I'm interested in a 20 gauge SxS.

The Marlin "LC Smith" 26" and the Weatherby Athena 26" are both made in Italy by Fausti. Am I expected to believe that a $2,400 Weatherby is better than a $1,400 Marlin, and that both are inferior to the normal production models of the company that made them both? I'm not talking about metal finish or wood grain, just mechanical reliability.

Seeing as the two guns are made to the same dimensions of size and weight, and from similar materials, by the same manufacturer is the Weatherby really any better than the Marlin?

 

[dbb1776]

I have no empirical evidence of this, only personal experience from traveling around the country and going to every gun store I can, including Wal-Mart's sporting goods section:

I notice that the guns at Wal Mart do not seem to be as well finished as some other retailers and distributors. I have a Marlin 30-30 that I bought from WM that aint as pretty as others I have seen.
I did buy a Marlin from WM previously that was better finished so maybe I just got a Friday afternoon gun the second time.

 

[ImARugerFan]

I'm not talking about metal finish or wood grain, just mechanical reliability.

When you get to a certain price point this high, what you're paying extra for is the attention to detail, not in the functionality. I doubt you can find many $1400 guns that won't work flawlessley.

I would think that the main differences you would find in a piece manufactured specifically 'for a price point' as you mention, would simply be looser tolerances.

 

[ArmedBear]

what you're paying extra for is the attention to detail

True. In an Over/Under, that's what matters, though. It makes the difference between a gun that will work fine for a while before it breaks, and one that will work perfectly for 30+ years.

I doubt you can find many $1400 guns that won't work flawlessley.

I just found 3 the other day at the same time and place. The local Sportsman's Whorehouse had 3 Ruger Red Labels on the rack.

That leaves the original question. I, too, am curious.

Note that Fausti has been a job shop, and AFAIK they do some fabrication for Beretta next door. They also made the Traditions guns that CDNN is selling for a few hundred bucks now. Given Weatherby's excellent customer service and warranty reputation (of which I have some personal knowledge), I doubt that Weatherby would sell anything that would be likely to break, at least on purpose. Marlin's rifles are great, but they're part of Cerberus now, so god knows about what sort of stuff they'd pass off if they can.

So, does anyone really know how the Traditions, LC, Weatherby, Cabela's, and any other Fausti guns compare?

The Cabela's guns I've seen, the SxS in particular, seem very nicely made, though it's hard to say how long any gun will last without testing it.

 

[oneounceload]

With a SxS, the main detail is the regulating of the barrels. It is IME, THE most expensive and labor-intensive part of the process - if done properly. Guns that cost less do so for a reason - they are meant to sell at a certain pre-determined price point as you mentioned. In order to do that AND make a profit, the maker has to trim costs wherever it can. Sometimes it may only be quality of wood and cosmetics. Other times, it might be machining (the recent spate of threads about burrs in the 870 Express for example). Some of it MAY be marketing hype due to the name on the gun.

I know that with the Beretta 68X series, the price differences are strictly due to finishes and wood quality - the mechanics are identical. Whether Fausti is doing the same in this case, I do not know firsthand.

Folks who are used to $200 pump guns do not realize that SxS at $1400 are not considered "high" quality. They can be decent and may last for a while if you don't abuse them much. Above a certain price point of about $8,000, you start to get into the bling costs, hand finishing, XXXXX quality burl wood, etc.....

 

[ArmedBear]

I know that with the Beretta 68X series, the price differences are strictly due to finishes and wood quality - the mechanics are identical.

That does bring up something other than mechanics.

It seems that, the better the barrels feel when you swing them through the air, the more expensive the gun. The 682's barrel set is different in construction from a 686's barrel set.

My ancient SxS was utilitarian when it was new, but in 1926, the labor to regulate a gun must have been cheaper. It's regulated amazingly well.

 

[Grey Morel]

I don't think regulation of barrels is as much of a problem today as it was in the early 1900s. If it's still the insurmountable problem that high end manufacturors would have us believe, then why is it that Stoeger can make a $350 double gun that paterns ok? Maybe not perfect, but good enough that you would never notice on clays or game.

Surely there have been some technological advancements in the last 100 years that make the process a bit quicker. We are not talking about soldering damascus barrel here.

In my research, I have also found that Fausti does contract work for Beretta, since their factories are in such close proximity.... Funny that all the snobs at shotgun world say Berattas are CLEARLY supperior to Fausti.

I was talking to my father inlaw last night about this entire issue. He works at a large machine shop, and they have made parts and recievers under contract for Springfield and Browning as well as others. The idea that you make one run better than the next becuase of the price some third party is planning to sell for struck him as uterly rediculous.

Simply put, it seems that Faustis overhead and cost of operation are nearly the same regardless of who they are contracting for. screwing up their tooling, or intentionally doing a crappy job would cost them additional down time when it they needed to change production to another label. It would be easier and quicker in the long run to make the same product with lower grade wood or finishes.

This seems like a clear case of diminishing returns, and paying for a name. The cost of makeing a $2,000 doulbe only 10% better could easily more than double the price tag. GMC cost more than Chevy, even though they come off of the same line. Craftsman cost more than ACE hardware, even though they come off the same line. Berettas, Weatherbys, Faustis, and Smiths all come off the same line.

In the end, I will probbly go middle of the road and buy the Weatherby, becuse the stock design and finish fit my tastes the best... But my reasearch into this topic has given me some perspective. A snob I am not.

 

[ArmedBear]

Grey Morel, have you ever shot any of the break-action shotguns you're talking about?

It doesn't sound like it.

BTW I'm sure their overhead and costs of operation are the same, PER MINUTE. An okay gun can be spit out fast. A Stoeger SxS has even less time in it (and is made in the 3rd world). A nice gun takes a lot of hand fitting and construction that can't be done in the cheapest possible ways. Ever heard of the 80-20 rule?

Fausti and the like will also have different staff with different rates of pay. One machine operator might be worth a few bucks an hour, a few more if he's sober. OTOH a highly-skilled gunsmith, one of only a few in the world who can still make a high-end shotgun by hand, might be worth a few hundred. It's entirely possible that two barrel sets could come out of the same factory, and one is worthy of a $5000 shotgun, whereas the other is worthy of a $1000 shotgun.

Perhaps you are too young to remember, but this was only a few years back... Have you ever seen the Winchester 94s that sold for cheap through sporting goods stores? They were JUNK. They came from the same factory as the very nice 94XTRs. That's a fact.

Food for thought: go to a good local builder and tell him you want a car for weekend drag races. When he quotes you $10,000 for a small-block Chevy motor, tell him you can get the same motor for a few hundred bucks, and you're not going to pay him 10 grand for a motor from the same factory.

Why do people start with a smart question, then end with a dumb rant?

 

[Snarlingiron]

The idea that you make one run better than the next becuase of the price some third party is planning to sell for struck him as uterly rediculous.

Let us not forget the issue of Quality Control. The machine shop is not going to intentionally make something shoddy, but I will bet the Machinist referred to would also agree that there some units that end up on the scrap heap. For a lower cost piece it just might end up on your gun. That doesn't mean that it is not functional, just that it isn't quite up to the standards set for a higher quality product. It could be many things, slightly greater tolerance, a hole that is slightly eccentric, a finish that doesn't quite meet specs, but will "get by". The list is endless.

 

[oneounceload]

Just because one company does some contract work for another does not mean that the guns are the same quality. There is a lot of finishing work that goes into them. Beretta makes guns to certain price points as well. Their Onyx versions are much plainer than the 687EELL, even though mechanically, the innards are the same; however the final finishing, polishing, etc. is not. And their SO series takes the EELL up several more notches.

Stoegers are owned by Beretta, BTW, although not made in the same factory.

Barrel regulation, especially on a SxS where you already have somewhat of a handicap due to the layout of the barrels, is very critical. If "close enough" is good enough for you, have at it. I prefer my guns to shoot exactly where they're supposed to - I need every advantage I can get as I get older.....

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW there was a company that thought it could undercut the "high end" makers, using modern technology, and make a nice SxS. It failed, as in "epic fail."

That company had a lot of similar successes under its belt, over five decades or more. That company is Ruger.

If you think that modern manufacturing turns SxS manufacturing into something trivial, think again. Ruger thought so, it cost them a lot of money, and they have no product to show for their effort and expense.

 

[oneounceload]

Ruger tried to make their gun to a particular price point and found out that, if they wanted it to be well-made and accepted, it was going to cost a lot more than they were going to sell it for. At the price they would have had to charge, folks were going to buy the RBL, or the AyA 4/53 for less and not have something that was cast. Their O/U's, while some love them, do have a rep for feeling and being loosely fitted - not a good sign

 

[Grey Morel]

Why do people start with a smart question, then end with a dumb rant?

Why do some feel the need to deride others based solely on perceived age and socio-economic status?

 

[texas bulldog]

I did buy a Marlin from WM previously that was better finished so maybe I just got a Friday afternoon gun the second time.

HAHA! i like that dbb1776. mind if i use that to describe lemons in other realms? i would think it could apply to just about anything...

 

[oneounceload]

GM - if you ever get the chance - shoot the Stoeger and then immediately shoot one of the better guns, like an AyA. I'd be surprised if you didn't notice the differences in how they feel, point and move, let alone the crispness of the triggers. If possible, take both apart and look at the inside mechanicals - you'll see the differences in machining, final fitting, polishing, etc. All those little touches are typically done by hand - which costs more in time and labor. Also look at the cosmetics - you'll see differences in bluing color and luster, wood to metal fit, etc. Again, those touches are typically done by hand and thus cost more.

If you're happy with a $350 Stoeger, and it does what you want it do when you want it to, then buy all means buy it and have a great time.

Are all expensive guns heads above the rest? Not always. Got a chance to examine a Verney-Carron. This is a $23,000 shotgun. Had some of the hardest, nastiest triggers I ever pulled. The rest of the gun was stunning, but whoever was in charge of trigger assembly that day must have had a 3-martini lunch, because those triggers sucked. The gun writer who was doing a review of the gun was very disappointed - you would think a company sending a gun for a review would make sure it was the creme de la creme - this one wasn't.

Price isn't everything, BUT it DOES tend to be an indicator of better quality in SxS's. However, you still need to do your homework and due diligence to determine whether or not it is worth it to you.

 

[ArmedBear]

Why do some feel the need to deride others based solely on perceived age and socio-economic status?

LOL

Are you truly so unable to recognize your own issues that you can't even tell when someone is throwing 'em back at you for fun?

Here's the most obvious quote from your ignorant know-it-all rant, that gives away where you're coming from.

Funny that all the snobs at shotgun world say...

If your age is much higher than one might perceive, then you have more reason to be embarrassed.

Of course, if you have access to the knowledge required to make a $5000 gun that retails for $1000, I do strongly recommend that you start a business as soon as possible. You will do quite well at it, and I will willingly eat my words.

Hell, I might even eat a box of choke tubes.

 

[ArmedBear]

Ruger tried to make their gun to a particular price point and found out that, if they wanted it to be well-made and accepted, it was going to cost a lot more than they were going to sell it for.

True.

However, it must be noted that the price point they shot for was $1995 for a meat-and-potatoes gun with Remington-grade walnut and a completely-plain stainless receiver with no finish required. The price they would have had to charge was around $4000.

They didn't set the bar too high. If Grey Morel were correct, Ruger surely could have sold the plainest American SxS made since 1948 for $2000. That's not chump change, and at least considering the one I had a chance to shoot, you weren't paying a penny for pretty.

 

[MAKster]

The perfect example of building to different price points is the Remington 870. The Wingmaster and the Express are essentially the same gun and are built in the same factory, but the Wingmaster costs double. Spending the extra time to polish the steel receiver smooth, better bluing, walnut verse hardwood, all add up.

 

[oneounceload]

Excellent analogy Makster - and just to add - which one do we constantly see threads about jamming, etc? The lesser-quality made Express.

 

[OneInchGroup]

Hi Guys,

Have been in manufacturing in the US since 1970, in lots of different factory operations, some involved in plastics, a few with ammunition and firearms, even got a chance to work with a fella named Dan Wesson making some plastic pieces for a towing winch he was building for a customer of his little shop at the time. Anyway, long story short is that a great deal of effort is invested in most manufactured goods specifically to make the process capable of building the goods to a contract price while still making a decent profit on the job. If what that means is that your 870, for example, has to include cast metal or metal injection molded parts in order to make the COGS (Cost of Goods Sold)meet the job requirement, then any of those pieces that used to be CNC machined from solid steel are going to the other cheaper processes tomorrow, if not tonight. Look at all of the cases where the new improved design looks and works "about the same", but folks who still have the old, outdated design product like theirs better. Remember the new Winchester rifles that came out in 1964, and were functional, kinda, but roundly hated by anyone who had the older version? Price drives retailing, and profit or lack of it drives manufacturing. I've watched any number of manufacturing Companies in the USA, lots of them in the firearms business, literally kill themselves with cost containment programs intended to help them survive. Been in maybe a dozen board meetings where, before anyone had the chance to pull out a gun and shoot him, some accountant jumped up and said "If we just exported manufacturing of these 10 (or 20, or 100) machined parts that cost us too much to make here, then we could save the Company" Every time one of these guys got those words out in a board meetng, you could count the days before the plant shut down and all that was left were that accountant, the shipping/receiving department, and the owner, and the Company then became just another importer of just another mound of Chinese products. Brilliant profit margn enhancement, but as to quality manufacturing, not so much.

 

[ArmedBear]

For a while, I think companies like Remington or the now-quite-deservedly-dead version of Winchester figure they can cash in on their names. Nobody will notice that they're producing crap.

The problem is that, sooner or later, people do notice.

Is it REALLY cheaper, in 2010, to produce guns in Belgium, Italy or Japan than in the US? REALLY?

Or do some other countries' manufacturers just have a longer view, so they don't succumb to the temptation to sell junk using their past reputation?

FN makes Model 70s in the US again, now, and I'd rather have any of the new ones than most pre-64s I see. Blasphemy? No, objectivity. The new guns are great, and the prices are excellent for what you get. Again: they're made in the US. But they are made in the US by a company that, for all its faults, seems to understand that the "Winchester" name isn't worth squat unless the product is good.

 

[OneInchGroup]

Perfect example of American made firearms being possible, with the right attitude; Beretta USA, in Accokeek, MD. They do the military and civilian 9mm Beretta handguns in a plant so clean you could eat off the floor, with US workers trained to take pride in their work and to be sure things are done as they should be. You can do it here, and do it well, as long as everyone is on the same team and of course you have that little edge you get from havng the biggest volume buy on handguns ever issued by the US military. Do enough of one thing, you figure out how to do it correctly, unless everyone in the plant is an idiot.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Is it possible that both guns cost exactly the same to manufacture, and that both Marlin and Weatherby just charge different prices?

I worked in a plant that made oil burner nozzels. The actual nozel made on my line was separated in packaging into 2 lots and stuffed into 2 different boxes. When you get to the plumbing supply store to buy an oil burner nozzel one box costs 2.00 more than the other and people swear it's of better quality. I've heard them say it's better and safer to just spend the extra money for piece of mind.

I made those nozzels with my own 2 hands and they were exactly the same.
Can this same process apply to these guns?

FYI - I handled a Traditions many years ago and the owner loved it. I just don't know if it lasted or not.