Federal Primers and Their Softness.

[Demi-human]

Not having seen CCI #350 Large Pistol Magnum Primers in what seem like an eternity had me thinking about Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers. But I hesitated at the remembrance that Federal are softer than CCI. In doing so I missed those for sale as well.

I searched through much material but my question remains.


Are Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers just as soft as their small primers?


I am unconcerned with their ability to light powder, and am interested in how malleable their cups are.
Are all their cups manufactured the same?

The pistol in question is, most definitely, not lightly sprung. The issue is a breech face imperfection I’d rather work around than move mountains to have redesigned and reworked.


Now for the profound takeaway.
“Primers will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no primers.”
But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.

 

[FROGO207]

My experience with CCI and REM primers is that the magnum versions are harder than standard. The WIN say for use in both regular and MAG. I have little experience with Federal primers due to their being softer in general but as far as the magnums I would think they would be stronger, but by how much would be the question. There are others on here that use them extensively and can enlighten us on this topic.

 

[ballman6711]

I use Federal Small Pistol Magnums in my .357mag loads, and see flattening with a top end W231 load and a midrange H-110 load.

Can't speak for the Large primers since I haven't used them, but I would think they would use the same cup material.

chris

 

[JFrank]

You could call Vista outdoors for additional information, I believe they manufacture federal primers

 

[Jonny2guns]

I have used both interchangeable over the years and never had a problem, that being said, I don't load right up to max load, high end but not max. YMMV

 

[Jonny2guns]

View attachment 1066807 You could call Vista outdoors for additional information, I believe they manufacture federal primers

That is some good info.

 

[dcarr]

I have used both interchangeable over the years and never had a problem, that being said, I don't load right up to max load, high end but not max. YMMV

What he just said except i load to low end to middle. Large pistol primers in .45lc (marlin lever) , large pistol primers in .45 acp (blackhawk modern), small rifle primers in .357 (blackhawk modern). small pistol primers in 9mm ( s&w mp2.0). Have been fortunate to be able to go to local range about once a week for last two years and have gone through ton of cci and mostly federal primers . Maybe half of the federal large pistol primers were magnum, noticed no real difference in results. no chrono though.

 

[JJFitch]

Great write up covering all things primers!

"Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications"

Smiles,

 

[ParallelCode]

Great write up covering all things primers!

"Primer Info & Chart + Milspec Primers for Semi-Autos & Other Primer Applications"

Smiles,

That is indeed a good write-up.

I had been under the impression that the CCI 400 and BR4 were essentially identical, but came off different lines. However, it sounds like they differ in cup thickness.

 

[Nature Boy]

I had been under the impression that the CCI 400 and BR4 were essentially identical, but came off different lines. However, it sounds like they differ in cup thickness.

Indeed they are. I had pierced CCI 400 primers in a 223 load, where BR4s performed perfectly.

 

[Reloadron]

But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.

Alrighty then with that in mind. There is more to it than cup hardness. I believe we can just sum it up as primer sensitivity. Pistol primers normally have a thinner cup made of softer material. Additionally it's not just how thick the cup is or how soft the material is but also the angle of the anvil inside the primer cup. Additionally the actual priming compound. As to thickness on average rifle primers are about 0.008" thicker than average pistol primers. A thicker cup does not always make for a less sensitive primer, it's a combination of variables right down to the "cake mix" or chemical mix of the priming compound. As far back as I can remember in rifle primers Federal were said to be among the most sensitive. Not sure as to pistol primers. In keeping it to cup hardness all primers are not created equal and primers made with the same thickness of equal hardness will not necessarily give the same result as to sensitivity or brisance.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[Akula69]

Demi - I have been running both for some time now (lucked into several cases some time between #44 and #46). In my .38 (686) and .40 (G22 Gen 3) loads and SPMP run just under the max load, and have seen slight flattening but no punctures. Not had any trouble with the 9MM (G43 Gen4).
I included the platform info because the firing pins are different, and (IMHO) can effect punctures when flattening occurs.

 

[Rule3]

For nit picking only, the primers are not hard or soft, it is the thickness of the metal used.
Probably an in depth thread on this somewhere.
Someone with lab grade equipment will chime in

Also we used the saying for other things way back when.


Primers will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no primers.”
But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Federal on the left, CCI in the middle, Winchester on the right. All three fired through the same RSBH with the same 22.2gr load of IMR 4227 under the same 255gr LSWC.
Loaded about three years apart from different lots of powder, though. Pressure should be pretty darned close.

 

[Demi-human]

That is some good info.

If it only had information about pistol primers…

primers. In keeping it to cup hardness all primers are not created equal and primers made with the same thickness of equal hardness will not necessarily give the same result as to sensitivity or brisance.

Exactly! And I am interested in the pressure tolerance/ductility of the cup. I know they will light the powder, but I need them hard to resist deforming on the breech face from an imperfection.

Someone with lab grade equipment will chime in…

I can’t anymore. He moved to Nevada. And it was the best thing to happen to him and I’ll miss him. Like right now.
But it’s good I don’t influence him, badly, anymore.

Great write up covering all things primers!

Yes it was! And while not providing the exact answer I wanted, is an absolute font of knowledge, with all those links. Thank you very kindly!
Since the reason for wanting this knowledge is a special case I’m sure I’ll have to break-the-egg and buy some to test in the pistol to know for sure.

You could call Vista outdoors for additional information,

Where’s the fun in that? I wouldn’t get to hang out with y’all.
And she didn’t have any data on that.

 

[Demi-human]

View attachment 1066931 Federal on the left, CCI in the middle, Winchester on the right. All three fired through the same RSBH with the same 22.2gr load of IMR 4227 under the same 255gr LSWC.
Loaded about three years apart from different lots of powder, though. Pressure should be pretty darned close.

Excellent! Thank you. I know it is only an example of one, but is precisely what I’m talking about. Even if the cup is the same thickness, the brass it’s self could be harder or softer depending on manufacturing methods.
I appears to me, though it’s hard for me to tell just in a pic, that the Federal is just slightly more flat. Would you agree? If so, it indicates it to be a little softer. Which is not ideal.

I very much appreciate the help @GeoDudeFlorida. Thank you kindly!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Excellent! Thank you. I know it is only an example of one, but is precisely what I’m talking about. Even if the cup is the same thickness, the brass it’s self could be harder or softer depending on manufacturing methods.
I appears to me, though it’s hard for me to tell just in a pic, that the Federal is just slightly more flat. Would you agree? If so, it indicates it to be a little softer. Which is not ideal.

I very much appreciate the help @GeoDudeFlorida. Thank you kindly!

Much appreciate the kind words. You are welcome.
You nailed it: the Federals always flatten just a hint more. But that’s probably by design. Think about the ignition process in slow motion: the firing pin is still fully extended when the powder charge ignites. As pressure builds the primer is driven back into the pin and breech face; as of that moment the case is still being held against the chamber walls and the firing pin is starting to lose inertia. As the pressure peaks, the case is released and moves back onto the primer.
Etc…
A flat primer formed around the firing pin and smooth against the breech face will hold more pressure, up to a point, than a very hard primer which will not yield to the firing pin.
Dynamic process.

 

[Blue68f100]

I would think the flash hole size will have some influence on this. I think the hole works kind of like a choke during the ignition process.

 

[.38 Special]

My personal experience has been that Federal pistol primers, both large and small, will show "pressure signs" earlier than other brands. I ignore it completely - but I don't have any centerfire pistols with breech face issues.

I strongly suspect that all Federal pistol primers are punched from the same material, but I have no way to prove it.

 

[Demi-human]

Think about the ignition process in slow motion: the firing pin is still fully extended when the powder charge ignites. As pressure builds the primer is driven back into the pin and breech face; as of that moment the case is still being held against the chamber walls and the firing pin is starting to lose inertia. As the pressure peaks, the case is released and moves back onto the primer.

Yes. And in the case of this auto pistol, the primer is not supported on one side.
When the case comes back to the breech face there is nothing to push that portion of the primer back into the pocket. This lets that side mush into the extractor cut, even though the other side remains round and perfect.
Being a pistol cartridge the pressure isn’t high enough to begin reading the tea leaves, as well I’m not trying to contain hot rod pressures. Just normal book loading for me please. But the issue is when the pistol unlocks a small bit of the primer is sheared off, even at start loads. I don’t like metal bits just floating about.
I suspect a long chamber further compounds this artifact.

Maybe a chamfer and buff of the ejector pocket could relieve some of the shearing. Or a stronger ejector spring. I believe it’s a rubber button…

I just had another thought to a solution, to cut down expensive parent case brass for tighter head space. Keeping the case tight won’t allow so much movement, hopefully limiting the bulge.
But the point of trying another primer was to continue to get the life out of already expensive brass.

I knew their standards were softer for light spring revolvers and things, but I was hoping their magnum primers may have been hard like the CCI and given me an option to look for availability.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes. And in the case of this auto pistol, the primer is not supported on one side.
When the case comes back to the breech face there is nothing to push that portion of the primer back into the pocket. This lets that side mush into the extractor cut, even though the other side remains round and perfect.
Being a pistol cartridge the pressure isn’t high enough to begin reading the tea leaves, as well I’m not trying to contain hot rod pressures. Just normal book loading for me please. But the issue is when the pistol unlocks a small bit of the primer is sheared off, even at start loads. I don’t like metal bits just floating about.
I suspect a long chamber further compounds this artifact.

Maybe a chamfer and buff of the ejector pocket could relieve some of the shearing. Or a stronger ejector spring. I believe it’s a rubber button…

I just had another thought to a solution, to cut down expensive parent case brass for tighter head space. Keeping the case tight won’t allow so much movement, hopefully limiting the bulge.
But the point of trying another primer was to continue to get the life out of already expensive brass.

I knew their standards were softer for light spring revolvers and things, but I was hoping their magnum primers may have been hard like the CCI and given me an option to look for availability.

At .44Magnum pressures, definitely. At some lower than standard automatic cartridge pressures? I find it hard to believe you could tell a Federal from a CCI. What’s the chambering?

 

[Palladan44]

I've seen different results with different primers, so much that my opinion remains at an "I can't tell" state.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've seen different results with different primers, so much that my opinion remains at an "I can't tell" state.

I already decapped all the brass from my really heavy hitter .44Mag/IMR 4227/255gr loads or I’d post a pic of what 24+ grains does to a CCI 350. You can tell one of them from a Winchester without knowing the color difference. I don’t use Remington or Federals with that load.

 

[Otto]

…But the issue is when the pistol unlocks a small bit of the primer is sheared off, even at start loads. I don’t like metal bits just floating about.

Forget about the primers and get an opinion from a qualified gunsmith instead. Your gun may be firing out of battery if it’s a pistol.

 

[AzShooter1]

Not having seen CCI #350 Large Pistol Magnum Primers in what seem like an eternity had me thinking about Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers. But I hesitated at the remembrance that Federal are softer than CCI. In doing so I missed those for sale as well.
Federal LPMP are as soft as their small pistol primers. I use thousands of them when I couldn't get small.

My competition guns only work with Federal Primers. I shoot revolvers with double action triggers as low as 5 pounds. I can forget about CCI's working for me.



I searched through much material but my question remains.


Are Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers just as soft as their small primers?


I am unconcerned with their ability to light powder, and am interested in how malleable their cups are.
Are all their cups manufactured the same?

The pistol in question is, most definitely, not lightly sprung. The issue is a breech face imperfection I’d rather work around than move mountains to have redesigned and reworked.


Now for the profound takeaway.
“Primers will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no primers.”
But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.