Federal Primers and Their Softness.

[JFrank]

 

[Jonny2guns]

View attachment 1067013

If these tolerance are correct some primer/primer pocket combos you could not seat flush. Has anyone run into this before?

 

[Rule3]

Here is part of a email that I sent to CCI (Vista) on rifle primers regarding thickness or hardness

I believe the same applies to Federal as they are from the same place It is thickness not hardness
Hows that for a "nit"?



"xxxx, below you will find the primer differences.

Large rifle primers
CCI-200............................ standard mix, standard cup, and standard anvil.
CCI-250............................ Magnum primer, Mag primer mix, thick cup, standard anvil.
BR2.................................... thick cup, standard priming mix held to a tighter tolerance, standard anvil.

So they are really not harder primers, just a thicker cup"


Make Every Shot Count!
Justin M.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732

 

[Palladan44]

Just a few thoughts:
Double action 357 revolvers hit a primer a lot harder than a striker-fired 9mm. Just the design and physics of the ignition systems. This may or may not mean anything, but it's just a thought with respect to cup metal thickness.

Harder or magnum primers in lower pressure rounds may come back "flat" for a totally different reason than a high pressured or "over pressured" round that also may flatten a primer might do. Reasons being the lack of initial obturation from a higher pressure or even a standard pressure round may give, which actually keeps the primer in place. In low pressure rounds, the pressure spike doesn't allow for this initial primer obturation, and the primers may push back and in so doing, may get flat or top-hat from the round being at a very low pressure. Same thing can happen when the primer pockets are becoming worn out (or a number of other reasons) and the primer/pocket fit isn't as snug as it should be. (The only examples of this occurred in revolvers, but could happen in semis just the same)
A member on here reported 44 Special mouse fart loads that flattened the primers and reported increasing the load to closer to mid-book and the flattening went away.

In theory, the thicker metal of the magnum primer may be harder to get to obturate and may push back out easier (and possibly flatten) than would the thinner metal of the standard primers. Where, at higher pressures, the standard primer may flatten first before the thicker metal of the magnum primer would
***HOWEVER*** the magnum primer with a tad more (or spicier) priming compound may very well increase pressure, causing possibly.....you guessed it..... flattened primers.
Oh yeah, and different headstamps give up to a 10% and in rare cases MORE variance in a number of different tolerances, dimensions, metal thicknesses, powder volumes, etc. So with all of these variables, not to mention LOT lot LOT variances in products....... nothing can be known definitively on what to expect with primer performance in any given recipe other than follow what's in the book and anything outside of that is 100% unknown.

 

[kalielkslayer]

You guys know this stuff way better than me, I’m learning.

But I hate the Federal packaging!!!

But through attrition, I’m using my Federal primers first since it’s just plinking loads. Don’t wanna use “good” primers on them. But after another 1,500 rounds, I have to make a decision. Quality SPPs or SRPs?

Since I have far more SRPs, kinda know what that answer will be.

 

[whughett]

I use both Federal large and small pistol in 9mm 38/357, 45ACP, 45Colt and 44 Magnum down loaded to 44 Special. No blown or pierced primers, in 45 years of loading rifle/pistol I’ve never had that happen with any brand of primer. Federal has been around decades which would indicate their product is as good as any.
I’ve also never put much stock in, who’s primer is better, either, so take the post for what it’s worth.
I will say some brands work better with Dillions machines, but in todays market that’s a work around.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I use both Federal large and small pistol in 9mm 38/357, 45ACP, 45Colt and 44 Magnum down loaded to 44 Special. No blown or pierced primers, in 45 years of loading rifle/pistol I’ve never had that happen with any brand of primer. Federal has been around decades which would indicate their product is as good as any.
I’ve also never put much stock in, who’s primer is better, either, so take the post for what it’s worth.
I will say some brands work better with Dillions machines, but in todays market that’s a work around.

Yup. Pretty good summary. I don't go for the "MY best is THE best!" school of thought, either. What I've observed is, every brand has it's own very minor idiosyncrasies which make them just a little "different" (but still nearly identical) from/to every other manufacturer out there - and that's a depressingly small number!

Federals tend to be my preference for hot Specials, approaching but not quite "magnum" pressures in handguns. In rifle, the smalls are good for magnum-pressure handguns and the larges are good for most '06-class rifles. Remington is my preference for "standard" oldies but goodies, like the .30-30, .30-40 and .44-40 in rifle; or, .38S&W and .32 New Police, .455Webley in pistol, as examples. CCI is generally good for anything - large or small, pistol or rifle, standard or "magnum" - unless it's a really old firearm with weak springs. Now, keep in mind, some of them springs haven't been made since grandpappy was a twinkle so just running down to the nearest hardware store for a replacement isn't an option. I use Winchester like CCI, mostly - they're generally good for harder to ignite ball powders without being too hard to set off in older guns, like CCI and some of the European primers can be. Bottom line, I don't have a favorite, don't see much more than a split hair's worth of difference between them, and generally just use what's worked well before without worrying about why too much.

These are all just my personal thumb rules made up over a long time of observing and trial-error, not hard-and-fast empirical laws of nature, so don't anybody go starting a food fight over how I see things.
I know how some of y'all can get when it's your ox in the turnbuckle or you think it's time to show you're, "I'm-the-smartest-kid-in-the-class," hats off. This ain't one of them times.

 

[JJFitch]

For nit picking only, the primers are not hard or soft, it is the thickness of the metal used.
Probably an in depth thread on this somewhere.
Someone with lab grade equipment will chime in

Also we used the saying for other things way back when.


Primers will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no primers.”
But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.

Check out Post #8! Is this in depth enough? Smiles,

 

[.38 Special]

You guys know this stuff way better than me, I’m learning.

But I hate the Federal packaging!!!

But through attrition, I’m using my Federal primers first since it’s just plinking loads. Don’t wanna use “good” primers on them.

If we happened to be in the same neighborhood, I would trade you in a heartbeat. I prefer Federal primers over all others.

 

[EricBu]

Not having seen CCI #350 Large Pistol Magnum Primers in what seem like an eternity had me thinking about Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers. But I hesitated at the remembrance that Federal are softer than CCI. In doing so I missed those for sale as well.

I searched through much material but my question remains.


Are Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primers just as soft as their small primers?


I am unconcerned with their ability to light powder, and am interested in how malleable their cups are.
Are all their cups manufactured the same?

The pistol in question is, most definitely, not lightly sprung. The issue is a breech face imperfection I’d rather work around than move mountains to have redesigned and reworked.


Now for the profound takeaway.
“Primers will get you through times of no money, better than money will get you through times of no primers.”
But really, let’s keep it to the cup hardness.

In stock, but you got to buy 5K at a time and they are a bit pricey (but price includes shipping/hazmat). I've bought a lot of primers from these guys lately. https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-large-pistol-magnum-primers-350-case-of-5000-16-p-112179.aspx

 

[Demi-human]

What’s the chambering?

50AE.

In stock, but you got to buy 5K at a time and they are a bit pricey (but price includes shipping/hazmat). I've bought a lot of primers from these guys lately. https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-large-pistol-magnum-primers-350-case-of-5000-16-p-112179.aspx

Ugh, it did have to be an entire case didn’t it. That’s more than my single dad self can swing right now, but I salivate at it anyway.
Maybe I skip a tank of gas. That should about cover it!

I wonder if they take children as collateral?


An interesting discussion. For certain I’ll have cash ready for when some other brands come up for sale. I’ll test them just for the sake of fun and knowing.

 

[9mmepiphany]

But I hate the Federal packaging!!!

But through attrition, I’m using my Federal primers first since it’s just plinking loads. Don’t wanna use “good” primers on them.

If we happened to be in the same neighborhood, I would trade you in a heartbeat. I prefer Federal primers over all others.

I prefer Federal primers over all others also. My next preference after Federal are CCI primers...mostly because they feed more smoothly in my primer loading tools

 

[9mmepiphany]

In stock, but you got to buy 5K at a time and they are a bit pricey (but price includes shipping/hazmat). I've bought a lot of primers from these guys lately. https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-large-pistol-magnum-primers-350-case-of-5000-16-p-112179.aspx

In my mind that is a bit pricey for CCI primers. I paid that price for Federal SPP when they had them

Ugh, it did have to be an entire case didn’t it.

That quantity is what allows them to offer them at that price. I ordered 10k because I believe that primers from Vista are only going to become more scarce

A good alternative to Federal seems to be Genix. The first 10k I found were $575/5k; including shipping and Hazmat. But I heard that they were down to $525/5k not that long ago...that's a bit less than $100/k when you figure in shipping and HazMat

 

[kalielkslayer]

I prefer Federal primers over all others also. My next preference after Federal are CCI primers...mostly because they feed more smoothly in my primer loading tools

It’s not the primer I hate, it’s how they are packaged.

For rifle I always preferred CCIs. For shotgun either Winchester or Federal.

I loaded another 147 9mm tonight. I had to fill the primer feed twice. Those things rolling around on their side takes as much time to fill the primer tube as it would take me to pump out 30 bullets!

 

[Demi-human]

Here is part of a email that I sent to CCI (Vista)

Thanks!
Things got pretty hectic here for a second and upon reading again I realized I forgot to thank you for your letter. It is appreciated.

There is probably not much variation in manufacturing between the different brand of cups.

For sure, I’ll have a few different things to try out this summer.

 

[Rule3]

Check out Post #8! Is this in depth enough? Smiles,

Most excellent but I think in needs some graphs , pictures and charts with colored lines and stuff!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Most excellent but I think in needs some graphs , pictures and charts with colored lines and stuff!

If you can't describe a process with a treemap chart, then you can't describe the process.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It’s not the primer I hate, it’s how they are packaged.
... Those things rolling around on their side takes as much time to fill the primer tube as it would take me to pump out 30 bullets!

Ah...should I read that to mean the size of the packaging isn't what bothers you but that the primers are oriented on their edges?

I've personally never had the issue as I place a primer tray over the primers and invert the whole thing. Lifting the packaging releases the primers into the tray which can then be agitated to orient them anvil side up. Then depending on which priming system you're using, you can fill the tubes easily

 

[Reloadron]

Ah...should I read that to mean the size of the packaging isn't what bothers you but that the primers are oriented on their edges?

I've personally never had the issue as I place a primer tray over the primers and invert the whole thing. Lifting the packaging releases the primers into the tray which can then be agitated to orient them anvil side up. Then depending on which priming system you're using, you can fill the tubes easily

Same, using my index finger I just tap the tray a few times and they right themselves. Smart little buggers they are.

Ron