Feinsteins response to my question

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Das Pferd

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If I remember right, I politely asked her why she felt the way she did and that I hadnt made up my mind. Here is the canned response I received.

Dear Mr. XXXXXX:

Thank you for writing to me about the Second Amendment.
I have spent a great deal of time working with this issue and would
like to share my thoughts and analyses.

The National Rifle Association would like people to
believe that the Second Amendment to the Constitution gives
every individual the right to own any kind of weapon, no matter
how powerful or deadly, and that the government has no right to
regulate in this area. However, the record is clear: the Supreme
Court has never struck down a single gun control law on Second
Amendment grounds. I feel strongly about correcting what I call
Athe Second Amendment Myth,@ so let me go through some facts
regarding this debate.

The Second Amendment says: A well-regulated militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) rarely mentions the
words Awell-regulated militia@. In fact, most of their literature
shortens the clause so that the amendment simply reads A... the
right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.@
Clearly, the NRA is leaving out half the story B the story of a time
when our Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that individual States
would be able to protect themselves from a tyrannical Federal
government by arming well-regulated State militias B in other
words, today=s National Guards.

The meaning of the Second Amendment has been
well-settled for more than 60 years B ever since the 1939 U.S.
Supreme Court ruling in United States v. Miller. In that case, the
defendant was charged with transporting an unregistered sawed-off
shotgun across state lines. The Court held that the Aobvious
purpose@ of the Second Amendment was Ato assure the
continuation and render possible the effectiveness@ of the state
militia. Because a sawed-off shotgun was not a weapon that would
be used by a state militia (like the National Guard), the Second
Amendment was not applicable to that case, said the Court.

All told, the Supreme Court has only chosen to address this
issue two more times after the Miller case. And each time, the
verdict was clear B the Second Amendment is not a bar to gun
control laws. In 1969, in Burton v. Sills, the Supreme Court
dismissed a challenge to New Jersey=s strict gun control law, Afor
want of a substantial federal question.@ Then, in the 1980 case of
Lewis v. United States, the Supreme Court held that AThese
legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based
upon constitutionally suspect criteria, nor do they trench upon any
constitutionally protected liberties.@ And the Court continued that
Athe Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a
firearm that does not have >some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.=@

In the early 1980s, the Supreme Court had another
opportunity to address this issue, but simply ruled to leave the
established precedent in place, rather than take up the Second
Amendment argument. Furthermore, at least twice -- in 1965 and
1990 -- the Supreme Court has held that the term Awell-regulated
militia@ refers to the National Guard.

And the history is clear through countless cases in the
lower federal District Courts and Courts of Appeal as well. Let me
just cite a few recent examples. In 1999, in the case of Gillespie v.
City of Indianapolis, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals held
that there is no individual right to bear arms.

Also in 1999, the Ninth Circuit even more specifically
addressed the Amilitia@ question, clarifying that only a State militia,
not a private militia, is covered by the Second Amendment.

In the 1998 case of Peoples Rights Organization v.
Columbus, the Sixth Circuit refused to overturn an ordinance
banning assault weapons on Second Amendment grounds.

In U.S. v. Scanio, also in 1998, the Second Circuit held that
the Second Amendment provided only a collective right to bear
arms for States in organizing militias, and not an individual right.

The Third Circuit held in the 1996 U.S. v. Rybar case that
the defendant=s possession of machine guns was not connected
with militia-related activity and that the Second Amendment
furnished no absolute right to firearms.

The list of cases goes on and on B dozens of instances in
Federal Courts of Appeal around the country, and countless others
in the lower Federal District courts.

Perhaps this history is what led former Supreme Court
Chief Justice Warren Burger in 1991 to refer to the Second
Amendment as Athe subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I
repeat the word >fraud,= on the American public by special interest
groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime...[the NRA] ha(s)
misled the American people and they, I regret to say, they have had
far too much influence on the Congress of the United States than as
a citizen I would like to see -- and I am a gun man.@ This was
Warren Burger B a Nixon appointee to the Court.

Burger also wrote, AThe very language of the Second
Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee
every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon...urely
the Second Amendment does not remotely guarantee every person
the constitutional right to have a >Saturday Night Special= or a
machine gun without any regulation whatever. There is no support
in the Constitution for the argument that federal and state
governments are powerless to regulate the purchase of such
firearms...@

And the NRA is clearly aware of this history. Despite all
of the NRA=s rhetoric and posturing on this issue, they know that
the Second Amendment does nothing whatsoever to limit
reasonable gun control measures. In fact, in its legal challenges to
federal firearms laws like the Brady Law and my Assault Weapons
Ban, the National Rifle Association has made no mention of the
Second Amendment.

Nonetheless, many on the other side of this issue may point
to the one, single, lone exception to the long history of Second
Amendment jurisprudence.
On March 30, 1999, a United States District Judge in Texas struck
down a federal law making it a felony to possess a firearm while
under a domestic restraining order. In the Texas case, a man in the
midst of a divorce proceeding was accused of threatening to kill
his wife=s lover. Although put under a restraining order and
therefore barred from possessing a firearm under federal law, the
man was subsequently caught with a gun and indicted for violating
the ban. U.S. District Court Judge Sam Cummings dismissed the
indictment, in part because the federal law, he said, had the effect
of Acriminalizing@ a Alaw-abiding citizen=s Second Amendment
rights.@

This was the first time such a decision was made by a
federal judge, but it is important to note that this decision has been
appealed. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the
Supreme Court, if the case reaches that level, would uphold this
decision. Since that 1999 decision, two federal courts, including a
higher Circuit court, have ruled that the Second Amendment does
not guarantee an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Once again, thank you for writing me with your concerns.
I have given a
great deal of thought to this issue and so I hope this letter serves to
clear up my position on this issue.

Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator:D
 
Given she's obviously spent a lot of time "working this issue" - write her back and ask her if "the people" as used in the 1st and 4th Amendments have a different meaning than "the people" as used in the 2nd.
 
What a freaking idiot!

The National Rifle Association would like people to believe that the Second Amendment to the Constitution gives every individual the right to own any kind of weapon...

Typical leftist attitude. The Bill of Rights doesn't GIVE any of us rights, it PROTECTS individual rights that we have because we live as a (more or less) free society.

And this twit is writing legislation?
 
I wish California would hurry up and break off and float away...
 
Well, there 'ya go. A look inside the tortured mind of a hardcore statist.
 
If humanity can ever be truly free, I wonder how long we will have to wait and how much suffering we will have to endure.

~G. Fink :(
 
Wow, I feel so dirty after reading that.

*Goes off to clean up with Lava and Steel wool*
 
Typical leftist attitude. The Bill of Rights doesn't GIVE any of us rights, it PROTECTS individual rights that we have because we live as a (more or less) free society.

Just look at the wording of the Declaration of Independence for some Founding Fathers Food for Thought (tm) on that issue:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."

"self-evident"
"unalienable Rights"
"to secure these rights" (as opposed to "grant")
"deriving their just powers from consent of the governed"
etc.

OTOH, the 2nd Amendment's wording clearly does leave room for argument and interpretation, you have to admit.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"well regulated"
"Militia" (not necessarily private citizenry outside of a collective, organized defense group)
"security of a free State" (not "security of individuals" or "persons," to use the term from the 5th Amendment)

I'm no Con Law scholar by any stretch, but that wording sure seems to leave wiggle room. Then again, I think people should have a reasonable right to arm themselves with firearms regardless of anything in the Constitution.
 
Does she really believe that if she gets 51 votes, that Mr. and Mrs. America will turn in their weapons?
Yes, as a matter of fact, she really does.

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."

--U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's "60 Minutes," February 5, 1995, speaking about her authorship of the 1994 "assault weapons" ban

Of course, the rules do not apply to HER.

"And, I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did. I was trained in firearms. I'd walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me."

--U.S. Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA), during U.S. Senate hearings on terrorism held in Washington, D.C. on April 27, 1995
 
Then, according to her own argument:

And the Court continued that the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.

the "assault weapon ban" infringes on these firearms that have "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." inasmuch as they are standard militay issue, or, militia-type arms, hence they ARE guaranteed by the 2nd.

Typical...

Wonder how she'd respond to that?

..Joe
 
Wonder how she'd respond to that?

Based on the rest of her statement, she'd probably say, "Those weapons are therefore acceptable for the National Guard, but not for private citizens."

***

On another note, it's funny that she presents an extensive list of facts (relevant court decisions), yet some people here have responded only with cheap ad hominems. That's not a good way to win an argument. It also fuels the so-called "anti" stereotype of RKBA advocates being know-nothing, knee-jerk right-wingers who can't be trusted with a gun. Show them that you're educated, informed, and responsible, and some fence-sitters might well come around. Spew epithets, and you'll soon find yourself in an ever-smaller minority.
 
That's not a good way to win an argument. It also fuels the so-called "anti" stereotype of RKBA advocates being know-nothing, knee-jerk right-wingers who can't be trusted with a gun. Show them that you're educated, informed, and responsible, and some fence-sitters might well come around. Spew epithets, and you'll soon find yourself in an ever-smaller minority.

That's a fallacious, spurious assertion containg the seeds of it's own untruth.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that gun grabbers do not respond to logic, nor do they engage in serious discourse. They are motivated simply by emotion and feelings (read: Hoplophobia), and cannot be persuaded by the facts.
 
Wonder how she'd respond to that?

Probably in some other form of political double-speak. Some of her argument in her letter seems to be based on the decisions of a Federal Appeals court but she doesn't mention whether or not the issue was take up by SCOTUS and what (if any) final verdict was issued. The various US Circus Court of Appeals (like her 9th in San Fran) is not a judicial body that has sound reasoning as its basis for jusrisprudence.

After reading the letter, it's clear that her reply is weak and only fits her personal stand. As much as I loathe to thnk that the Democrats have a chance to win this year, I have to believe that they are not as radical as Feintwit is.

Her use of the US v. Miller case has to be flawed as "sawed off" shotguns were used by the military as early as WW1 and were an effctive tool in that conflict. And I would not be suprised that Guard units like Military Police companies do in fact have these types of shotguns in their unit arms rooms. Futhermore, shotguns with 18" barrels are legal for sale and use. So clearly the SCOTUS decision itself was not a precedent setting one.

And In Lewis v. US, she mentioned that "the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a
firearm that does not have >some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia". So what firearm that we may lawfully own does not have a "reasonable relationship.... of a well regulated militia?? We can own handguns, semiauto rifles, shotguns and even fully automatic weapons as long as we get the correct BATF approvals. And all of these weapons are part of any military arsenal be it the regular Army or the National Guard. Hell, look at the stuff that Mike Dillons owns!! He has a minigun for crying out loud!! (Hope her royal twitness doesn't know that!!)
 
the "assault weapon ban" infringes on these firearms that have "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." inasmuch as they are standard militay issue, or, militia-type arms, hence they ARE guaranteed by the 2nd.

She also says in one part that the courts have ruled a "militia" is not a group of private citizens. The "militia" is the National Guard.
 
This is why I think that a revision of the 2nd is warranted. Loose the debatable language and ask the US population to once and for all support the personal right to unincumbered self defense. If they disagree with us and we find ourselves incabable of swaying them at least we will have had the debate and everyone will know which side of the question they sit on and why.
 
She also says in one part that the courts have ruled a "militia" is not a group of private citizens. The "militia" is the National Guard.

I wonder how the militia can only mean the National Guard since the latter didn't even exist until the early 20th century. For that matter during the Colonial Period, the Colonies had laws not only making even adult male a member of the militia, but also requiring them to furnish thier own weapons. Each town had it's own militia.

-Bill
 
Because a sawed-off shotgun was not a weapon that would
be used by a state militia (like the National Guard), the Second
Amendment was not applicable to that case, said the Court.

How is the National Guard a 'state' militia when it has 'national' in the name? Pure and simple, it's inland extension of the government's military. It has nothing to do with the states. Good luck trying to convince here that though. I honestly can't believe she put the two side by side in the same sentence.
 
WHM - heh you beat me to it =)

Was gonna say that the National guard as an entity funded and directed by the federal government sure could give a S*** less about an individual state's wants/needs/desire SECURITY of a "free state".

Not only that - when it was written - a "well regulated militia" pretty much meant calling on the PEOPLE (who shouldn't be infringed mind you) to the call to secure the security of thier OWN free state. WITH thier OWN weapons. (thus why they shouldn't be infringed!)

Imagine if we could a time of war unlike the US has ever seen... or maybe wwII... when Japan didn't decide to land... what if they did? we'd get run over as pockets of 1 or two armed citizens... so there would likely be some kind of organization of people (locally or regionally) in order to make the militia more organized. To protect - to serve - to partake in the freedom of this country. With our own guns in hand.

Its so easy to legistlate the protection of this country out of law when things are going great and we are a superpower and no one wants a piece of this (now) in order to flail around hopelessly trying to disarm a small minority of the american public (the criminals). ROME fell once....

J/Tharg!
 
That's a fallacious, spurious assertion containg the seeds of it's own untruth.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that gun grabbers do not respond to logic, nor do they engage in serious discourse. They are motivated simply by emotion and feelings (read: Hoplophobia), and cannot be persuaded by the facts.

Which is why I said "fence-sitters." Not everyone blindly falls into one conveniently labeled political camp. Folks like Feinstein will do what they can do limit the RKBA because of purely emotional grounds, and then lamely justify it in one way or another. OTOH, some folks will agitate for the RKBA becase of purely emotional grounds, and then lamely justify it in one way or another.

There are folks in the middle, though. And if RKBA advocates give those people the impression that we are indeed "right-wing gun nuts," then folks like Feinstein can tap right into those fears easier than ever. It seems to me that more than a few people aren't so much afraid of guns as afraid of the type of people they think own them.
 
Thoughts for a response...

1) Since she has been inclined to arbitrate on the Founding Father's motivation on the issue of well regulated militia's and their purpose - and then mentioned the National guard, we should examine this. I am not an expert in this, but my opinion of the National Guard is that of a wing of the US military force. Although there seems to still be control of them at the state level, they seem to be used militarily and adopt the same controls and bylaws. Also you can even be sent to a foreign war. I don't think the national guard is a militia to the extent the Constitution is defining it. So if the National Guard is not a definition of the militia, isn't every American Citizen by definition if abiding to laws of the constitution and regulated to pay taxes and own land, could be counted as militia if they so choose? Since we all agree and know that the founding fathers put this in on purpose of protecting citzens against tryannical goverments - which we always should be wary of, how is the National Guard that body?

2) The real issue of the second amendment debate for her seems to follow in some definition of what firearm a citzen has a right to bear. Now I am not of the mind that most citizens could handle owning a browning .50 cal machine gun by most measures, but some could. That's an extreme example... However repeating rifles like the AR, .50 cal bolt action target rifles, whatever a Saturday Night Special really is, and many others are so ambiguous that to define this per weapon seems not what is being addressed. Most legislation on this has no technical merit and is proven to be political hype.

Although she is eloquent in her argument, her argument and single mindedness and blind ambition, and socialistic "government knows best" in this makes me want to :barf: Maybe she would better spend time working on healthcare to children, HMO and pharmacutical company abuses, and other more public services that mean something. How about trying to weed out the corruption and over administration of our human services in education and family care so our tax payers money does more in stopping young children to be criminals so us citzens who are legal don't loose more rights that her blinded demigod minded ideals seem to choose?

Off the soap box.
 
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