FFFG vs FFFFG

[frenchdr]

Hi all, for those in the Lexington KY area Evan's firearms & archery is now carrying goex. It is the only place I know of within 100 miles carrying it. When I went there they were out of FFFG for my Walker revolver. The salesman assured me FFFFG will be safe and just use less powder. Any of you more experienced bp shooters have an opinion on this? How much less powder? I typically shoot 55 grains pyrodex, gun is only a year old and in near new condition. It is a uberti made gun. I care less about accuracy on this and more about safety and making sure I don't destroy my gun.

Thanks!

 

[grter]

I would not use ffffg (4f) in a walker or any cap and ball revolver except for the Ruger Old Army. You risk damaging the gun or prematurely wearing it out.

It will burn much faster and produce more pressure. Most cap and ball revolvers except for the Ruger Old Army are made of softer steel that lacks the durabilty of heat treated and tempered steel used for modern smokeless firearms.

4f is often used against manufacturers advice in smaller caliber (.31 Cal) mini revolvers with success but I am not sure how this would fly when used to push heavy .44 caliber projectiles.

Keep in mind the Walker requires a minimum charge to properly seat the bullet or roundball without leaving an air gap which is probably more 4f than you want to use unless you use corn meal or something like it as a filler.

I really am not sure if you can pull it off but I would avoid it.

 

[rodwha]

Hazard's Pistol Powder was used in a Civil War paper cartridge. It was 4F powder with the energy of Swiss (quite high), but the charges were small then (usually in the low 20's or less).

Typically going from 2F to 3F there is a reduction of about 10%. I can't say if it holds true going from 3 to 4F.

It's about pressure and the smaller the granules the quicker it gets there.

4F in a Walker would be a very touchy thing, especially as many originals blew up with conicals, though there is only specilulation as to why.

The only max I know of is 2F Triple 7 (66 grns) behind a ball. Goex is weak in comparison but there's still the pressure curve. Uncharted waters there.

 

[swathdiver]

1860s Hazard's Pistol Powder was of 4F granulation. Back in those days, using 1/10 of bullet weight for powder was the recommended load. For example, if one is shooting a 216 grain picket bullet, 21-22 grains of powder would be used.

However, in the case of the Walker, I cannot imagine the loading lever being long enough to seat a round ball over 14 grains of powder, even with a wad. 40+ grains of corn meal or cream of wheat should be used as a filler.

Modern thinking on the use of 4F powder has been ruined by lawyering. Follow the rules and one can have a good time.

For our Walker, we use 50 grain charges of 2F rifle powder to tame the recoil and for a little more fire and brimstone. After all, that's purely its purpose at the range, to entertain and introduce folks to the biggest sixgun ever produced.

 

[rodwha]

Before Uberti changed their site it stated how their model was much stronger than the originals as it was made with modern stronger steel and then went on to say the max charge was 30 grns of 3F. Go figure...

 

[rodwha]

I'm certainly not going to go against manufacturers recommendations but a curator for a museum took apart several old cartridges when they used heels bullets (late 1800's) and all of them had 4F or finer granulation a up to .44 caliber.

Things changed along the way to where it's said you need courser grains than what was historically used.

 

[vagunmonkey]

I regularly compete with an 1858 Remington and have used 12-15g 4F exclusively for the last 2 years. Would I fill a Walker cylinder with it....NO!! However I would have no problem going up to 22g in a .44 and perhaps 18g in a .36.

You do need to have good nipples (TRESO) with small holes or the powder will trickle out the nipples...

 

[frenchdr]

Thanks for the replies everybody! Seems like the general consensus is that this is a bad idea. I'm bummed but the store owner said they will have 3f back in stock shortly. And now that I have a pound of 4f I have to start shopping for a flintlock right?!

 

[TruthTellers]

You don't have to buy a flintlock to use that 4F. Any good quality .31 revolver will work just fine with it, better than with 3F actually. North American Arms specifies to use 4F in their .22 cap and ball revolvers because it's so small a projectile.

The nice thing about those .31 caliber revolvers is they're like clown guns compared to the freaking huge Walker.

 

[Mike OTDP]

However, shooting a good flintlock pistol is good fun.

 

[swathdiver]

Thanks for the replies everybody! Seems like the general consensus is that this is a bad idea.

Huh? One vote against and several others said it was ok. Guess that one feller carried a lot of weight for your thinkin'?

It's not the perfect powder but it can be used safely as mentioned in my earlier post.

Our Belt Model Pietta Remington fires nearly full chambers of 4F nicely but not any more accurately then 3F. Both send the boolits supersonic; a lovely sound!

 

[BigHunt 1981]

I have used many pounds of Goex 4F in my 1858 Remington.

A full chamber full with just enough room to seat the ball.

Never had a problem with that load. Gave about 1080 fps and was as accurate as any other load I ever shot in it.

I have also shot it out of a 1851 44 caliber "Navy" brass frame. Full chamber charge with no ill effects or frame stretching.

I think a lot of the stories people tell about the weakness of cap and ball revolvers is just that... stories!

 

[Noz]

or, you could use the FFFFg as a starter charge in a black powder duplex load. 5 grs under the cap and a normal load on top of that. Just be a little easier to ignite.

or, find a flintlock shooter that would love to have the FFFFg for his priming pan.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

If the salesman said that, he is a fool and idiot and the store is a bigger fool for keeping him on.

Simple rule of thumb. Never use 4fg for a main charge. Under some very few exceptions, as pointed out, the Ruger, and a couple diminuitive caliber guns,

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

yes you can use 4f in your revolver use approximately 1/2 the recommended amount.
Yes a walker can handle 60gr charges. but 50 is a more normal charge.
At that rate reduce to 25 to 30 gr and you should be just fine as long as the gun is in good condition.

For rifles and pistols of 32 cal and smaller 4f works fine in them too. Just reduce the charge a bit.
the smaller grains ignite easier and faster and thus the pressure builds a bit faster is all.

In 45 and 50 cal rifles the normal recommendation is 2fg but you can safely use 3fg if needed. Just reduce you normal charge by about 1/2.
Have done it many times as needed.
Ain't blown anything up yet and been doing it nigh on to 40 yrs now.

 

[rodwha]

Here's a pic of old Swiss powder cans. Note the pictures depicting the uses.

 

[rodwha]

Here's a similar topic:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=789483

 

[rodwha]

The fellow who researched Civil War paper cartridges and found 4F was used in the Hazard's Pistol Powder cartridges that were as energetic as Swiss gave permission to share his research. It's lengthy so I'd need to email it if anyone is interested.

And the museum curator who disassembled late 1880's metallic cartridges with heeled bullets and found them all loaded with 4F or finer can be found here I believe.

 

[4v50 Gary]

That's interesting rodwha.

 

[rodwha]

I don't feel a need to use 4F in anything I currently shoot (.50 cal sidelock, .44 Rem NMA, and .45 ROA) as I'm plenty happy with 3F Olde E and T7 through them. With my more accurate loads with 170 and 195 bullets I'm getting about standard .45 ACP performance from my Rem and mildly hot (450-500 ft/lbs) from my ROA.

But if I had a pocket .36/.31 I might be inclined to buy some 4F Swiss if I wasn't happy with the powders I have.

And were I to end up with 4F powder for some reason I'd certainly use it, though I'd reduce my max potential charge by 10% just to be safe. I won't just charge beyond manufacturers recommendations.

 

[rodwha]

There's an older Lyman loading guide that also had 4F loading info for guns over small caliber. It makes one wonder if it was some of the questionablee manufacturers of arms, namely ASM, for the downgrading.

 

[ofitg]

And the museum curator who disassembled late 1880's metallic cartridges with heeled bullets and found them all loaded with 4F or finer can be found here I believe.

Yep, in fact, his user name is "Curator". Post #17 in this thread -

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=746331&highlight=cartridges

There's an older Lyman loading guide that also had 4F loading info for guns over small caliber. It makes one wonder if it was some of the questionablee manufacturers of arms, namely ASM, for the downgrading.

You may be referring to the 1975 Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. It iists full charges of 4Fg in .36 and .44 revolvers.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Lyman put out catalogs from about 1890 to present, (shortly after Barlow invented the nutcracker loader) with a short gap between ownership by Marlin and the current company. The old Lyman catalogs are a treasure trove of BPCR information. Loads bullets molds, etc. There were special target bullets that do not exist today because of the higher velocities with smokeless. I have an original catalog from about 1920. But the same information is available in reprints from places like Cornell Publications. Just as Dixie Gun Works Catalogs contain a great deal of information for muzzle loading, an old Lyman catalog has even more about BPCR loads and loading.

I never noticed a suggested load using 4fg, but I have read about reloading the old outside lubricated cartridges in their catalog.

It should be noted that Manufacturers also produced special granulations of black powder for various cartridges. Just as there is 1 1/2 fg, there was a granulation between 4fg and 3fg and it was produced by Hazard for cartridge companies as I recall reading.

 

[ofitg]

Just for the record, here's a front-cover scan of the 1975 Lyman handbook - and one of the load tables from page 76 -

 

[rodwha]

Did it state what pistol that was in?

I'm curious about the max charge of 37 grns. That's likely close to what a max charge in my Remington NMA would with a ball, and by that I mean it is filled to capacity and cannot hold more. I've only used up to 35 grns and it was near but not flush with the chamber mouth.

Anyone know how much pressure a typical .44 (not the thicker walled Dragoon or Walker) is designed to handle?