Triple 7 FFFg vs Pyrodex P vs GOEX black powder

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DavidB2

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Just curious at to whether Triiple 7 FFFg is more efficient than Pyrodex P since GOEX black powder is so hard to find? I have heard that Triple 7 is more powerful than either Pyrodex or black powder.
 
I've got similar questions, so I'm watching for sage wisdom too.

I did score a pound of Goex fffg this weekend. I'm looking forward to taking the 1858 44 cal out for its maiden range trip soon.
 
I like 777 more that either Holy Black or Pyrodex. It is cleaner and more powerful.

I have a few pounds of Pyrodex RS but I doubt that I will ever use it and Black is hard to get here.

As a substitute 777 is better than the original. I know that is heresy but it is my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt as I have only been shooting cap and ball since 1967.
 
I use black powder and substitutes in cowboy action competition and during deer muzzleloading season. I am not interested in setting velocity and energy records with my black powder guns. My load for deer in my .54 Hawken is 80 grains of powder under a patched round ball...It gives me excellent accuracy and will still go through a deer. Max loads for a .54 are around 120 grains, so I am well below maximum when hunting. The deer don't care.

For competition, I like Pyrodex in cartridges (.38 Special, .45 Colt) because it produces less fouling (IMO) than Goex and is cheaper than 777.

I like Schuetzen real BP in my percussion revolvers because it ignites more easily with a percussion cap than Pyrodex, it's cleaner than Goex, and it's cheaper than 777.

Just about any BP or substitute works in a shotshell at cowboy action competition.

So I am presently using up my remaining Goex inventory in shotshells, Pyrodex in cartridges, and Schuetzen in the cap and ball revolvers.

I do not plan on ever buying Goex again. I have loaded all three (brass cartridges, shotshells, and cap and ball revolvers) with 777 and it worked fine. It's just more expensive than the others and I have no need for a hot black powder substitute. If I found 777 at the same price as Schuetzen or Pyrodex I would snap it up. But so far I haven't.

You will hear complaints about Pyrodex being corrosive. I cover the exposed parts of my guns with a light grease before shooting, and clean them a few hours after shooting, and do not have a problem with rust or corrosion. If you do not like cleaning your firearms thoroughly, avoid Pyrodex.
 
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This is a good comparison between the different powders,

Colt .44 8 inch 35 grain 3F Pyrodex 140 grain, .454 ball 930 ft/s 269 ft-lbs
Colt .44 8 inch 35 grain 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 860 ft/s 229 ft-lbs
Colt .44 8 inch 37 grain 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 862 ft/s 231 ft-lbs
Colt .44 8 inch 40 grain 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 930 ft/s 268 ft-lbs
Colt .44 8 inch 24 grain 3F Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 848 ft/s 224 ft-lbs
Colt .44 8 inch 30 grain 3F Triple Seven 140 grain, .454 ball 1020 ft/s 324 ft-lbs

It takes a 40 grain load of black powder to equal a 35 grain load of Pyrodex whereas a 30 grain load of Triple 7 gives you almost a 100 feet per second more velocity then either the 40 grain load of GOEx or 35 grain load of Pyrodex. But I think his energy figures are low because a 454 round ball weighs more than 140 grains. At least in my experience.
 
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Triple 7 is about on par with Swiss and Olde Eynsford (made by Goex to compete with Swiss) black powders. This is comparing them by volume.

I've read that Olde E and Swiss are cleaner than other BPs.

Triple 7 weighs less than BP. Therefor you get more volumetric loads than BP.

Olde E is $1 more per pound than standard Goex. It gives me the same POI and group size as T7 loads. I like it and stock up on it more than I do T7. Fouling isn't too much a problem.

I greatly dislike Pyrodex's sticky fouling. And it is more corossive. I've seen a test done comparing Pyrodex to T7 and BP and sheets of steel that were lit and left in the garage for 4 days. T7 hardly damaged a thing, but Pyrodex was by far worse than BP.

Judging but the few chronographed results I've seen I'm guessing my Remington's accurate load of 30 grns gives about 350-400 ft/lbs with my 170 and 195 grn bullets, and my Ruger's 35 grn accurate charge is likely 425-475 ft/lbs. Not bad. I will be sending some bullets to a fellow here who will use my loads (weighed them so as to be accurate) to run across his chronograph. I'm curious.
 
I believe the last I bought Old E had gone up in price compared to regular goex.

In no way does 777 compare to Goex Old E or Swiss regarding fouling. 777 leaves that hard gray fouling, Old E cleans up with just a damp patch and leaves the bore shining.

In cap and ball or other muzzle loaders I don't care for 777 as I've always noticed a slight delay in ignition compared to real black powder and I certainly wouldn't say it's more efficient. If you can't get real black then it will work for hunting loads.

If just target shooting I prefer APP over any other subs.

I refuse to shoot Pyrodex in my guns because they start rusting before the bullet hits its mark.

I was shooting 777 in my inline muzzle loader and Ruger old army but after a few seasons of hunting with it and plenty of rounds down range I am back to real black powder in everything.
 
I shoot nothing but Holy Black when it comes to blackpowder shooting. I would never consider otherwise.
 
Curator, those figures aren't mine. They are from a web site and if I remember correctly he measured by volume. It's to bad he didn't include Swiss or Olde Eynsford powders but good comparative testing between the powders just the same.
 
I haven't shot Pyrodex is years, maybe a couple decades.

I have a good supply of Goex. In my experience, which is mirrored in this thread, it is dirtier and less energetic per volume than Swiss or Triple 7. Swiss is much cleaner burning and more energetic than Goex (I have compared 3Fg, never shot any 2Fg Swiss).

Triple 7 is the most energetic per volume and the cleanest burning. When shooting it in a revolver, cleaning the bore takes only a couple wet patches, even after having fired the gun more than 40 times.

The only other propellent I've tried in my BP guns was Elephant, back in the 90s. That stuff was filthy and less energetic than Goex. It's no loss that it's no longer available, IMO.

I have to say that after I shot Swiss powder my opinion of Goex dropped, a lot.
 
I shot Pyrodex P in a '58 and left if for a week to see what would happen. I heard that Pyrodex is supposed to be cleaner and less prone to rust.

None of that was true.

I think in the future, with what velocities I see others have gotten with Triple 7, I will buy that after I exhaust the half pound of Pyrodex I currently have. I don't much care for having the ultra fastest speed, I just want cleaning to be easier.
 
Black powder really is no harder to find than going here http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm
or to Grafs, or Maine Powder house or Buffalo Arms Co. and ordering it.
Efficiency might be not be the best route to look at powder buying, accuracy being the first concern, and I've yet to find any of the subs except for blackhorn 209 to equal the accuracy of blackpowder.
Those that haven't tried Olde Enysford powder are missing out on some of the finest blackpowder available today. There are a number of shooters leaving Swiss for it, and we're seeing a number of matches won by shooters shooting Eynsford.
 
Jeepergeo, the only way to find out what those black powder substitutes will do in a particular gun is to try them. By the time I go through a pound of the powder I have a good idea as to whether I like them them or not. Almost all of them including Goex black powder leave about 50% of their weight in the barrel as residue. The only reason 777 doesn't leave as much residue is because by volume it weighs less than Goex. I've tried 4 of the substitutes and every time I have been disappointed so I use Goex and go through the cleaning chores like everyone else. Goex is very dependable and consistent and it fires every time. I have solved the load problem by swabbing with WonderLube patches every time before I load. When loading my 50 caliber rifle I run the patch in about a foot and pull it back out again because most the fouling is toward the end of the barrel. Then I flip the patch over and run it in all the way. For a hunter, it seems that most of those black powder substitutes create almost as many problems as they solve. They are not very consistent which can affect accuracy. When I take my 50 caliber White Super 91 to the woods in October it will be loaded with Goex FF.
 
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I bought all Old E the last time I ordered black powder. For the pricing compared to quality it's a no brainer. There is no reason to use anything else.
 
Cowhide Cliff, I'm going to buy Olde Eynsford the next time I need BP if I can find it in my area. It looks like a high quality black powder. I strive for consistency and weigh every powder charge on my RCBS scales and Olde E looks like it will help me make every load the same. Thanks for the information.
 
Any Goex distributor/dealer should have Olde Eynsford in stock. If not just order it from Powder Inc.,Grafs or Buffalo Arms.
This past weekend at the Rocky Mountain Regional BPTR match, a number of good scores were shot, and both the high Marksman and Sharpshooter class were won by shooters using Eynsford.
The Quigley match winner this year also runs Eynsford powder.
 
Don, thanks for the information. Again, I'm interested in trying Olde E because I would welcome a high quality BP. I run my 50 caliber slugs through an RCBS .503 punch set so that every bullet loads easily and shoots to the same point of aim. It's great to have a 50 caliber BP rifle that shoots like a 30-06 out to about 120 yards.
 
I shot 2 x's and and 8 in succession at 1000 yds Saturday during a lull in the wind gusts, my shooting pardner shot a 4 shot group about the size of a pie plate with his 45-90, only problem was it was up on the corner of the target mostly 7's , shooting 85 grs of 2f Eynsford with his paper patched bullets.
 
flints

I have not used either Pyrodex or Triple seven since i went to flintlocks exclusively. They just don't light. BP goes off every time.
Pete
 
Pyrodex and 777 light up just fine in my percussion rifles and single shot pistols, but fail miserably in my flintlocks. They flat out don't work in the flintlocks.

So, although I have some Pyrodex and 777 around, I try to stay consistent and use my Goex.
I may use up the Pyrodex and 777 in my cap and ball pistols and stick with just one black powder, Goex.
Nothing wrong with Swiss or Olde Eynsford, but I can run down to a nearby gun shop and pick up Goex. I would have to order and ship the others.
Ron
 
As Olde Eynsford is made by Goex you may be able to find it at your favorite toy shop you go to. And if they don't carry it maybe they could be persuaded to order a bit next time. I've not heard of anyone who didn't like it better. However for those who shoot matches and worked up their winning loads might not desire to go back and retest.
 
While all of Goex powders have gone up in the last couple years, there is less than a dollar a pound difference between Old E and regular Goex at Powder Inc.

For that price difference I can't figure why any supplier would not carry the Old E.

Or the better question, if they are going to only carry one why would they choose regular Goex since there is no comparison between the quality but little price difference.

If those few penny's matter then there are even less expensive option for better powder. KIK is every bit as good as regular Goex and cost less. I found it's actually better and cleaner burning.
 
sage5907 said:
Jeepergeo, the only way to find out what those black powder substitutes will do in a particular gun is to try them. By the time I go through a pound of the powder I have a good idea as to whether I like them them or not. Almost all of them including Goex black powder leave about 50% of their weight in the barrel as residue. The only reason 777 doesn't leave as much residue is because by volume it weighs less than Goex. I've tried 4 of the substitutes and every time I have been disappointed so I use Goex and go through the cleaning chores like everyone else. Goex is very dependable and consistent and it fires every time. I have solved the load problem by swabbing with WonderLube patches every time before I load. When loading my 50 caliber rifle I run the patch in about a foot and pull it back out again because most the fouling is toward the end of the barrel. Then I flip the patch over and run it in all the way. For a hunter, it seems that most of those black powder substitutes create almost as many problems as they solve. They are not very consistent which can affect accuracy. When I take my 50 caliber White Super 91 to the woods in October it will be loaded with Goex FF.
Click to expand...
Sage, thanks for the detailed reply. I've now got pound each of Goex, Pyrodex, and 777 and look forward to trying them out. The comments here are really helpful in getting ready for my first range trip with the 1858.

The cleaning comments on this forum have been helpful...I'm now looking for a couple of bins I can use.

BTW Sage, a Hawken is on my list....hoping to pick up a used one.
 
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