FFL procedure, which is correct?

[CLP]

I've ordered a few firearms and had them transferred to FFL #1. He charged 25$ per xfer, and left the firearm unopened- totally sealed- in the box in which it was delivered until I arrived to pick it up, at which point he lets me open it, inspect it, then hand it over to him so he can inspect the serial #. I discovered FFL guy #2, who was located equidistant from me, and charged only $15 per transfer. When I arrive to the store, the firearm is opened already. He states this is required by the ATF. I found the firearms in NIB con'd, and didn't suspect him of shooting it or anything- he seems on the up and up. I was just left wondering, is FFL guy #1 not doing it right by leaving the gun unopened, or has FFL guy #2 misunderstood the regs?

 

[plunge]

the shop i go to sometimes opens it before i get there and sometimes doesn't. i think it just depends on when he actually puts it in his log book. i doubt the law says the second you get the gun you must log it.

 

[Tomcat47]

The way my dealer does it is open and fully inspect firearm, enter into Log, then proceed with transfer.

They said they must physically inspect all serial numbers, model, and caliber enter into log and then a second employee confirms everything and log and then to transfer.

Im Good with that!

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, funny thing about that law, see it does say that you must log a firearm in when it is received

How you interpret it, is entirely up to you, BUT where you spend the next ten years of your life, MIGHT be up to the nice ATF inspector. It's bad practice for a FFL to fail to immediately log in a firearm.

 

[dogtown tom]

CLP I've ordered a few firearms and had them transferred to FFL #1. He charged 25$ per xfer, and left the firearm unopened- totally sealed- in the box in which it was delivered until I arrived to pick it up, at which point he lets me open it, inspect it, then hand it over to him so he can inspect the serial #.

Completely legal as long as you arrive before the close of business the next day. (see the CFR and exceptions below)

I discovered FFL guy #2, who was located equidistant from me, and charged only $15 per transfer. When I arrive to the store, the firearm is opened already. He states this is required by the ATF.

There is no ATF requirement to open the package immediately on receipt. But as explained below he must generally do so before close of business the next day.

I found the firearms in NIB con'd, and didn't suspect him of shooting it or anything- he seems on the up and up. I was just left wondering, is FFL guy #1 not doing it right by leaving the gun unopened, or has FFL guy #2 misunderstood the regs?

Both may have acted completely within Federal law. The difference is the length of time from delivery until you showed up.

Shadow 7D Yeah, funny thing about that law, see it does say that you must log a firearm in when it is received

Generally, the dealer has until close of business the NEXT DAY to record the receipt of the firearm.

478.125 (e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.
Except as provided in §478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. In addition, before commencing or continuing a firearms business, each licensed dealer shall inventory the firearms possessed for such business and shall record same in the record required by this paragraph. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date ...

But................in some cases the dealer may take up to seven days to record the acquisition:

478.125(g) Commercial records of firearms received.
When a commercial record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record contains all acquisition information required by the bound record prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic, may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record: Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on the licensed premises: Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.

 

[isc]

My FFL opens and logs every weapon on the same day it's recieved. That is the law. If an ATF inspector came and found unlogged guns that were shipped days prior the FFL could/would be cited.

My FFL also charges one flat $20 fee for each form, no matter how many guns went on it as long as it's less than the number of lines available (4 or 5 I think).

He gets alot of business from me and I've sent alot of friends to him. He has low overhead and is a great guy, It pays to have a regular FFL that you've developed a relationship with.

 

[NavyLCDR]

My FFL opens and logs every weapon on the same day it's recieved. That is the law.

No, it isn't the law. The law was posted directly before your post, but it was probably posted at the same time as you were typing. FFLs have, at a minimum, until the end of the next business day to log in the gun.

 

[Liberty1776]

My guy almost always opens it to see which gun it is, and who it came in for. Sometimes if I'm the only one, or it has my name on the outside of the box, he won't. It's just a matter of making it easier to track down who he needs to call...

 

[natman]

Sounds like the first FFL is willing to assume that the serial numbers on the box and the gun will be identical and the second isn't.

 

[dogtown tom]

natman Sounds like the first FFL is willing to assume that the serial numbers on the box and the gun will be identical....

According to the OP he DID verify the serial number.

 

[snubbies]

Logging in upon receipt

We log all guns received on the day received. The log book states in the first pages that 27 CFR 178.125 seems to be controlling in this matter. With one exception, subparagraph (g) of that section they must be logged in within 24 hours for guns bought or acquired and 7 days for guns sold. If the dealer logs all transactions immediately upon receipt he will never get in trouble. But again I am not a lawyer just a poor dealer.

 

[dogtown tom]

snubbies The log book states in the first pages that 27 CFR 178.125 seems to be controlling in this matter. With one exception, subparagraph (g) of that section they must be logged in within 24 hours for guns bought or acquired and 7 days for guns sold.

That isn't accurate.
It's not 24 hours, but "close of business the next day". The exception that allows seven days also includes guns sold if certain conditions are met.
See CFR 478.125 posted above.

 

[snubbies]

Next Business Day

OOPS"

 

[jonnyc]

My FFL opens the package to inspect and ID what he's received, and gives my a description of the item and option to refuse it before I come down. I then get it transferred to me. Does it even need to go into his bound-book?

 

[shiftyer1]

yes they have to be logged, I always did it the day they came in. Waiting until the next didn't work for me. I have a great memory, it's just short.

 

[dogtown tom]

jonnyc:...I then get it transferred to me. Does it even need to go into his bound-book?

It goes into his book or he goes into jail.

The transfer process:
1. Licensed dealer receives a firearm shipment which he logs into his bound book (record of aquisitions and dispositions). This is recorded as an "acquisition".
2. When the dealer sells (or transfers) the firearm he will have the customer complete a Form 4473 and NICS check. If NICS gives a "proceed" the dealer logs the gun out of his bound book showing a "disposition" to the customer.

When ATF conducts a compliance inspection they will match up the entries in the dealers bound book vs 4473's vs firearms in his possession. For every entry in the bound book there had better be a 4473 or a gun at his premises. If not..........bad times.

 

[jonnyc]

OK, I wasn't sure for a simple transfer.

 

[natman]

According to the OP he DID verify the serial number.

Let me be more specific: The first FFL is willing to log the gun in based on the assumption that the box and gun match. The second isn't.

 

[snubbies]

Box

What Box are you referring to?? Most of the guns I receive are not in a box, except the box it was shipped in, There is no requirement nor is it advisable to write the contents of the box on the outside of the shipping container.

 

[dogtown tom]

natman:..Let me be more specific: The first FFL is willing to log the gun in based on the assumption that the box and gun match. The second isn't.

Nowhere does the OP state that the first FFL did anything like that. Firearms are rarely shipped in the manufacturers box only- it's pretty stupid to do so. The dealer couldn't have made the assumption on a firearm serial number as it isn't printed on the outside of a shipping carton. I've received over 2,500 firearm shipments and have yet to get one with the serial number printed on the outside of the box.

CLP: ...He charged 25$ per xfer, and left the firearm unopened- totally sealed- in the box in which it was delivered until I arrived to pick it up, at which point he lets me open it, inspect it, then hand it over to him so he can inspect the serial #...

Where does he say it was logged in proir to the OP's arrival?
Dealer #1 did nothing wrong.

 

[mgkdrgn]

When transfer guns come into me, I open them up.

1) Check for hidden damage.
2) Verify the item -is- what it is suppose to be
3) Verify the serial number for my books

My business, my books, my a** on the line.

It's shocking how many guns I get in with NO paperwork other than a (really bad!) copy of the sending FFL. I'm left to figure out what the mfg and model is, serial number, caliber, and who the damn thing is for.

And yes, I've had NIB guns come in where the SEALED box says one SN, but the gun itself says something else.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Let me be more specific: The first FFL is willing to log the gun in based on the assumption that the box and gun match. The second isn't.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

Both are correct, one is just a lot more "trusting" than the other.

Me ... not so much! (from experience!)

 

[tinygnat219]

For Dealer #1, he's incredibly stupid if he doesn't open the box and get the serial number OFF of the gun. The box and Gun can have mis-matched S/Ns. $25 bucks ain't a bad transfer fee either.

For Dealer #2, he's doing it right. For 15 bucks, I'd visit him all the time.

 

[dogtown tom]

tinygnat219 For Dealer #1, he's incredibly stupid if he doesn't open the box and get the serial number OFF of the gun. The box and Gun can have mis-matched S/Ns. $25 bucks ain't a bad transfer fee either.

Sure....if that's what the OP said was what happened..........but it wasn't.:banghead:

Read the OP.......Dealer #1 DID verify the serial number.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sure....if that's what the OP said was what happened..........but it wasn't.

Read the OP.......Dealer #1 DID verify the serial number.

Exactly... both FFL's accomplished exactly the same thing and complied with all applicable laws and regulations. Dealer #1 verified the serial number in the presence of the recipient. Dealer #2 verified the serial number without the recipient being there. Whose to say Dealer #2 isn't opening packages and looking at the guns and if he has the same exact make/model isn't switching the two guns because the one he just received is in better condition than the one he has on the shelf? Nobody would know the difference unless the final recipient asked to see the bound book.