FFL transfer question

[Uncle Alvah]

Hypothetical question:
Non FFL gun seller in one state, sells a rifle on GunsAmerica to a non ffl in another state.
Buyer arranges for a local FFL to receive and transfer the rifle to him, which the dealer does.
Two days later(GA requires a three day inspection period) buyer decides he is not satisfied, and the non-FFL seller agrees to refund the purchase price.

On another forum, a member claimed that, in that scenario, Federal law allows the buyer to ship the rifle DIRECTLY back to the out of state seller.

Opinions appreciated.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Opinions appreciated.

The deal is done. The gun was transferred to you. 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5) apply to the subsequent transfer of the gun back to the original seller:

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Thus, when you return the gun to the orignal seller, across state lines, without an FFL, you violate 18 USC 922 (a)(5). The person receiving the gun violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3). You will both have committed Federal felonies.

 

[Uncle Alvah]

Thank you!!!!!!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Ask the member of the other forum to provide you with an exception to 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (a)(5) for returning a gun already purchased and transferred. There isn't one.

 

[Uncle Alvah]

Thank you too!!!!!

 

[Al Thompson]

Agree with NavyLT. These are two separate transactions.

 

[hirundo82]

Wouldn't federal law allow the FFL to ship the firearm directly back to the seller though?

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

 

[NavyLCDR]

Wouldn't federal law allow the FFL to ship the firearm directly back to the seller though?

No. Because there would be no way to complete the required form 4473:

27 CFR 478.124:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

The only exception to the form 4473 requirement is for the return of a firearm to the original owner if it was delivered initially for the purpose of repair or customization. In the case of a purchaser returning a firearm to the seller - once the initial transfer takes place, the purhcasher now becomes the owner of that firearm and, secondly, it's not a matter of repair or customization.

 

[EOD Guy]

Wouldn't federal law allow the FFL to ship the firearm directly back to the seller though?

Quote
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

Only if the shipper was an FFL holder or the firearm was shipped for repair or customizing. Otherwise a 4473 would be required to return the firearm. [See 27CFR 478.124(a)]. That's one reason some FFLs will not accept shipments from unlicensed individuals.

 

[brboyer]

[In reply to NavyLT's last post]

This is true even if it has not been transferred yet, right?

Like if the buyer fails the NICS check. The firearm is still 'owned' by him, but he cannot posses it. He would have to make arrangements to sell it back to the original seller, or any other person. Whomever ends up finally getting it would have to complete a 4473.

 

[EOD Guy]

It looks like NavyLT was posting while I was writing. Beat me to it.

 

[Bubbles]

This is true even if it has not been transferred yet, right?

Like if the buyer fails the NICS check. The firearm is still 'owned' by him, but he cannot posses it. He would have to make arrangements to sell it back to the original seller, or any other person. Whomever ends up finally getting it would have to complete a 4473.

The only way for an FFL to ship a firearm to a non-FFL is if the non-FFL shipped it specifically for gunsmithing. Then the gunsmith can ship it back to the owner.

In the example above there are two scenarios, and both should be handled differently.

First, suppose the purchaser inspects the gun, decides it's not as advertised, and doesn't fill out a 4473. The seller agrees to take the gun back and refund the buyer's money. As noted above, the FFL can not ship that gun directly back to the seller, so it goes to the seller's FFL.

Second, suppose the purchaser inspects the gun, decides to accept it, fills out the 4473, but fails NICS. At that point IMO the seller is off the hook - it's not his problem that the purchaser got denied. Obviously the purchaser can't take it, and in that situation we would consign it for the purchaser. We definitely would not transfer the gun to the purchaser's wife, sister, mother, best friend, coworker, etc. as we know how that would work out in the end...

 

[brboyer]

The only way for an FFL to ship a firearm to a non-FFL is if the non-FFL shipped it specifically for gunsmithing. Then the gunsmith can ship it back to the owner.

In the example above there are two scenarios, and both should be handled differently.

First, suppose the purchaser inspects the gun, decides it's not as advertised, and doesn't fill out a 4473. The seller agrees to take the gun back and refund the buyer's money. As noted above, the FFL can not ship that gun directly back to the seller, so it goes to the seller's FFL.

Second, suppose the purchaser inspects the gun, decides to accept it, fills out the 4473, but fails NICS. At that point IMO the seller is off the hook - it's not his problem that the purchaser got denied. Obviously the purchaser can't take it, and in that situation we would consign it for the purchaser. We definitely would not transfer the gun to the purchaser's wife, sister, mother, best friend, coworker, etc. as we know how that would work out in the end...

As I thought. Thanks.