Finally got a Remmie

[Ferret]

Yup... just got back from a gun show, I had taken an Enfield SMLE to sell/trade and came back with a Replica Remmie '58 complete with 'starter kit' and a framed photo of Clint (Josie Wales) as straight trade.
Now that I have one, I have a few questions on it.
1 - A quick look at the bore and... it looks like its smoothbore. Not knowing anything about Remmies.. is this normal?
2 - Can anyone tell me who the manufacturer is? I have inserted pics with the only 3 markings that i can find on the gun. I think that the PN means Pietta.
3 - The 'starter kit' had .451 balls, and 30 grain Pyrodex pellets. The .451 balls didnt 'shave' at all and fell out if the gun barrel was pointed at the ground. I am gonna try this with .454's that I have, anyone think that I should go larger?

Now I just have to get another one, and a couple of conversion cylinders!

Thanks in advance.

JJ Ferrett

 

[Starter52]

Try a .454 ball with your new gun. That is the correct size for the 1858. If for some reason the .454 is still too small, try the .457 that Ruger uses in the Old Army.

Your gun could have been made by one of several Italian companies. Uberti and Armi San Marco are two common ones.

Blackpowder pistols barrels sometimes have shallow grooves. Your should not be a smoothbore. If it is, the factory screwed up.

Pyrodex pellets? What is the world coming to?

 

[Jrsmith]

The PN marks on your gun look like the ones on my Pietta, so I would guess that's what it is (or at least the cylinder).

 

[ribbonstone]

PN is the proof, nearly all Italian guns have a PN proof. Does mean it was proofed in Italy.

Have found a few older guns that were more-or-less unmarked....but that inerlocking set of diamonds nect to the headstamp rings a distant memory bell....will have to look around a bit.

 

[Ferret]

Something else that may (or may not) help with identification.
This has a brass bead front sight. I was looking for pics of other Remmies, and I was surprised not to find many with this type of bead sight. Any info on this?

 

[sjohns]

Can you find a square with 2 letters inside of it like BT or AS or anything like that? The PN mark is standard. The year mark is what I am referring to.

Did you look under the loading lever? Sometimes they are maker marked under there.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

I would give my back teeth for an SMLE!
Don't think it is a Pietta. My 58 competition has a blade foresight as have Uberti 58's. I use .457 balls in mine but have dropped the load from 30.9grains ( which was fun but not accurate) to 25grains which is. I use a lubed felt patch between the powder and ball, nothing else. I have been shooting paper cartridges recently but they are not as accurate as loose powder although quicker loading.
I would be supprised if it is a smoothbore, defeats the whole point of the thing for me!
Keep us informed.
Duncan

 

[Ferret]

I have a stack of SMeLliEs. Got them last year when one of the importers got another 'load' imported from India. The one I traded was an Ishapore still in cosmo. Seeing as I have more Ishies than I need (more than 2) I thought that I may be able to get something else for it. Out of the 5 I got last year, one was a rarer LSA (London Standard Arms) and one was a Lithgow (1918!!)
anyhow.. i digress. My new toy is going out for a play today! I cant believe that its in so good a condition. My thoughts are that whoever bought it originally got all the extras together and didnt like it for one reason or another. I did try it with the pyrodex pellets (30gr) and the 451 balls yesterday and it 'groups' like a scattergun. Today I am gonna try it with Pyrodex P powder and I am gonna throw a few loads of 777 that I got yesterday. I havent tried 777 yet, but its time to try it.. 454 balls.
I am gonna be shooting milk jugs n water to see if i can recover a few balls to check for rifling marks.

 

[Steve499]

You can seat a ball in an empty chamber, remove the nipple and drive the ball back out from the rear to get the chamber size. Then you can drive it down the bore with a dowel rod to see if it takes any of the rifling. That slugging the bore also will let you know if you have any tight or loose places in the bore, which usually mean bad things for accuracy.

Steve

 

[mec]

unusual for a .451 to fall out of the chamber. they are usually about right for the pietta and sometimes just a bit too small for a uberti. Front sight is a mystery too. The PN means they CLAIM to have proof fired it. Sometimes we wonder such as when a Uberti 58 shows up with a .36 barrel and a .44 cylinder. bet they didn't really proof fire that one unless they mixed the parts up later.

 

[arcticap]

Remington "Smoothie" by design?

I'm just wondering if this gun could have been designed (or converted) to be a "smoothie" snake or trick gun of some kind.

Here's some descriptions of SAA's types with either smooth or partial rifling, but still designed to be used with shot, and there's been lots of generic garden guns produced over the years.
These particular paradox revolvers are for use with either bullets or shot.

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/NEW/Paradox_r1_c1.htm

 

[mec]

That might be the answer. It might also account for a front sight that looks like a shotgun bead.

 

[Ferret]

Hmm... I have heard of snake guns before, but, never thought I would see a cap n ball one.
I have checked the underside of the barrel, and cant find any markings other than what looks like a C just in front of the cylinder pin.
I am gonna slug the bore, and probably each chamber to find out just what dimensions they are, and see if there is any rifling at all.
I have had a very close look (magnifying glass etc) at the front bead sight and it doesnt look like there are any tool marks, etc, to show that this is a replacement. Add to that the fact that when I got this the other day, I checked it out and it seems like it hasnt been fired much at all. I would guess that only a couple of cylinders went through this before someone gave up on it and traded it in. I also counted the number of balls in the box that I got with this and 13 are missing.

I am asking around on other sites about this. The double diamond marks and other curiousities are certainly getting peoples comments.

I took this down to the local BP gunsmith this morn and he checked it out. His reply was;
'Doesnt seem to be any of the Italians that I know of. The cylinder is definately a replacement on this gun, and thats Italian, but, I have no idea where this Remmie was made, or by who'.
He did make a comment that this may be a '2nd or 3rd gen 1858'.
What did he mean by this?

Now, another problem. It looks like the timing is slightly out on the cylinder rotation. If I pull the hammer back hard and fast, the cylinder locks up perfect, but; if I cock this with anything less than full force, the cylinder stops just slightly out of alignment and has to be rotated a little to bring it in.

I shot some balls into milk bottles (yeah... BIG water fountains) and recovered a few. I have attached photos. A couple show the side being clipped from the chamber being off a little. Other than that, I cant see any clear rifling marks, just scratches from the forcing cone and barrel.

Again, thats to you all for help with this. I know we are all interested in these BP guns and it seems like I have aquired something that is a little unusual.

JJ

 

[sundance44s]

sundance44s

Never have seen one quite like this one ... let us know what it is when you find out .. as for the cylinder not makeing it to the lock up position ..try pointing the barrel at the ground when ya cock it slow .. if it goes to lock that way .. it might just be the spring on the hand is weak and needs bending some .... if thats it and you try bending it be careful not to do any bending from the bottom of the spring it`ll break there ...always bend from the top .. i found out the hard way once .

 

[mec]

either their are light rifling marks on those balls or I am imagining them. (quite possible).
Interesting revolver in any case. These mysteries do occur. I have a completely unmarked replica colt navy that came with a bunch of others assembled, without front beads or any finish. and not one single proof mark or anything else on it. All of theses came in boxes with colt literature. It appears to be an old Pietta and has inferior internal parts and misaligned cylinder.
Everybody tells me that all of the above is impossible, never has never will happen. But I have it.

Oh and he mean that it is a New Model army version of the remington. Remington marked all of them 1858. they actually began producing them in 1860 and there were a couple of variations with the New Model being finalized in 1863. Most or all of the replicas are of the 1863 variation.

 

[Ferret]

Hey... its not a smoothbore. Well not quite.
I slugged the bore with a 454 ball and lo and behold there was some rifling on the ball. Not as clear as the rifling that shows up on a ball from my 1860's but, its there. The lands are large and wide with very narrow but not shallow grooves.

I had a comment on another board that the double diamonds before the serial number may refer to the Pietta 'brothers' and this may be a late 70's revolver. Is there any way to check by serial number?

 

[mec]

Somewhere on that revolver- probably on the sides of the barrel if it is a Pietta is a square box. Inside the box are a couple of letters. These will tell you when the gun was made. Typical Pietta markings include <FAP>
If your gun was made in the 1970s, the number range will be:
1970 XXVI
1974 XXX
1975 AA
1979 AE
or points in between.

 

[Ferret]

Stripped the thing down to its last screw.
The barrel has a crown like marking on the top right at the back just before the threads. The trigger has the same little crown like marking just next to the screw hold for the hand.
The only other marking I can find on it is underneath the knurled end of the cylinder pin. The marking there is 448.

The ball that i used to slug the bore mic's at .4415"

 

[mec]

Probably made in Belgium and could be from the 50s or 60s .

 

[Ferret]

Belgium???

 

[mec]

The first replicas in the 1950s came from there through Navy arms and some others. Before long the industry vectored toward Italy.

 

[Pocomoke]

The PN marking indicates that it is a black powder weapon, regardless of manufacturer. Originally from the French ,IIRC, "poudre noir" literally is powder black. Since it also is on all of my Piettas I assume that either the Italian is similar or the French abbreviation is used more broadly.

 

[Ferret]

A better view of the cartouches

I managed to get a clear(ish) photo of the cartouches on the cylinder.
Thanks to Wwalstrom, the proofs on the cylinder match to the Gardone proof house stamp and the Gardone V.T. Black Powder proof stamp (PN), so the cylinder was definately proofed in Italy, but, seeing as I am pretty sure that this is a replacement cylinder, it doesnt really tell me anything.

I havent found ANY cartouches even remotely matching these anywhere else on the gun.
I have also blown up the cartouche that i have found on the right hand side of the frame (right hand as viewed from back).
This looks like a star and a knights helmet facing left.
Photo quality isnt the best, but, I had to blow these up to a viewable size.

and thanks for all your help

 

[sjohns]

I got a millenium Uberti 58 in the mail today. It was in great shape like the seller said it was. That trigger pull... ugh.

Ferret!
I've seen that double diamond somewhere, but I don't remember where. When mec was talking about a belgium gun, I remembered that there had been a couple at auction, but I can't find them yet until they come back up for sale. I think mec's right and that would be from the 60's.

 

[Ferret]

Why would a cylinder have the double diamonds with the serial one one side (belgium??) and then Italian proof marks on the other?
If the gun was made in Belgium and then shipped/exported through italy, would the italians have reproofed? If so, shouldnt there be a Belgian proof there too?