Find myself wanting a Romak 3 (PSL)

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I know all about the Romak 3, "Dragunov" rifles, etc. I know they are not as accurate as a .308 AR, M14, etc. I still find myself wanting one. I like the idea of a semi auto, "Semi" accurate rifle in 7.62x54 (Russian for .30-06).

The local gun shop has them for 850. I know J&G has them for 750, but by the time I pay shipping and transfer fee, I would be close anyway. Any current owners will advice? Good or Bad. Let me have it!

 

[WardenWolf]

AIM Surplus has them for $750. The only problem I've had with my PSL is one of the magazines has some weld pits under the feel lips. These must be filed smooth to avoid catching the cartridge rim and causing a jam. Otherwise, they're very fine, absolutely reliable rifles.

 

[alpinemike]

My two cents, I just bought one. I have yet to shoot it. I read the forums for two years! I know a few things. First off they are not "Dragunov rifles" they were designed to fill the same roll and shoot the same ammo but they are nothing more than over sized kalashnikovs. This is for a few good reasons. Aks are easy to maintain, reliable and cheap. Those who follow Top Ten (MILITARY CHANNEL) know that a panel of military and war historians found the ak-47 to be the number one combat rifle in history. B-E-S-T! I'm sure a few guys through up that night. But really it makes since.

All that outta the way. The PSL has a long history of net gun guys arguing over its every thing! accuracy reliability and on and on. this little tid bit sold me so I'll share this with you. This is a Finnish sniper's account of his PSL. They use SVD Dragunovs, he owns a PSL privately. Read this. It really is what sold me on this rifle. http://www.dragunov.net/finn.html

Oh they tend to show up sort of....ugly... but hey a little elbow grease and they can look nice. see...

 

[WardenWolf]

Only thing my PSL could really use is a very fine sanding on the foregrips to smooth out the varnish, and a recoat with a polymer acrylic clearcoat. It's fine, though.

 

[maskedman504]

Comparisons to Dragunovs/SVDs and AK-47s aside, the number one thing to remembers about these rifles is you need to shoot light ball ammunition! Alot of 7.62X54r is heavier ball that is most suitable for Mosins. The PSL needs to keeps the bullet weight less than 150 grains- bullets heavier than this will cause damage to the internals and receiver of your rifle.

 

[WardenWolf]

Actually I've read 155 grains, and I take that to be acceptable. I would not hesitate to shoot that through my rifle. 150 is sort of an arbitrary stopping point because commercial copies of military light ball are invariably 150 grains in weight. Commercial light ball can be hard to find. Wolf has it (and the local Cabela's has it in stock currently) in their Wolf Gold line, but it's $18.50 a box. PRVI Partisan (which makes the ammunition for Wolf) also produces a 150 grain soft point under their own name. I got these from AIM Surplus for $10.50 a box. Let's see, shoot corrosive ammo and spend a bundle on cleaning supplies, shoot Wolf FMJ and spend a bundle on ammunition and not be legal for hunting, or get the PRVI Partisan ammo and be good for hunting with non-corrosive ammo. Guess which one I chose?

 

[sharkhunter2018]

Not to hijack the thread, but have any of you PSL owners successfully shot soft point ammo in them? One of my friends bought one and wanted to try it out. Was only going to split a mag and I didn't see the point in shooting a few rounds of corrosive. So all I had were some Prvi 150 gr. softies.
It failed to chamber a round and one round had the bullet almost completely pushed into the case. So we ended up loading it one round at a time.

It may have just been this particular rifle, but was curious if any of you guys have either successfully shot soft points or have had the same problem.

 

[WardenWolf]

I haven't shot it with the soft points yet, but they should chamber. The cases are identical to the Wolf Gold, and the tips are almost the exact same width. You may have a rough mag that needs some time with a file. That's what it sounds like to me. Rough mags can be a bit picky what they digest as they don't operate smoothly and may cause the bullet to angle differently.



See those weld pits on the back of the magazine? That can happen inside the magazine as well, under the feed lips. Imagine what that would do with a cartridge rim. Such mags require quite a bit of work with a file or a grinder to fix. Or you can pick up a spare mag at a gun show where you can inspect it. That's what I did. My new one (which you're looking at) has no problems inside the magazine body.

 

[sharkhunter2018]

Mike - I don't remember what exactly the bullet was catching on as it was a couple months ago. IIRC though, it was catching on the edge of the mag, but like I said I'm not positive.

He did shoot some surplus through it about a week later and told me there were no feeding problems.

I just assumed it was a mag issue though, which it most likely is.

 

[WardenWolf]

Nothing a file can't fix. On my "good" mag, the tips of the bullets sit well above the guide at the front of the mag. The bullet would not contact the guide until well into the jacketed portion of a jacked soft point. My earlier problem mag is the same. I just took my problem mag apart again and gave it a bit more work with the file. Now there should be absolutely no opportunity for hangup.

What I suspect was happening was the bullet was first catching on a pit in the magazine body. The bolt is pushing on the bullet from the top, so catching like this will cause the bullet's nose to turn downwards. Then when it breaks free it will be driven into the front of the magazine body resulting in the exact malfunction you describe. What you were seeing was not the problem, but the result of the problem. A good understanding of mechanics and the effects a potential problem such as this can have is invaluable to troubleshooting minor gun problems. Instead of going into the gunsmith going "It's broke. Make it work." and spending hundreds of dollars, you can fix it with some basic tools. In this case, a needle file.

 

[Guns Go Bang]

As far as the need to shoot light ball ammo goes, I hear some people saying that using a recoil buffer designed for the Kalashnikov in a PSL will allow up to the 180ish grain ammo. Anyone have anything to say about this?

 

[2ndAmFan]

I've heard and read a lot of good things about the Dragunov and clones from other Combloc nations, including that the Romak is considered the best readily available in the US by many people who own and know about them. I saw a few online in the $700-800 range, but I don't want to buy a gun without looking it over carefully and holding it first. The cheapest one I've seen locally was $1200, and that was w/out a scope. I looked that one over with a bore light and it looked very clean inside though. I've read you should plan on getting a new modern scope as the original ones are usually worn out and have no low light capability anymore. I've heard/read you should fire only bullets in the 147-150 grain weight range too. Don't know if the recoil buffer would allow heavier rounds or not.
A buddy of mine had one and said with a good scope he was getting tight 5 rnd groups at ranges of 600 yds. using Polish milsurp ammo. A Dragunov is supposed to be accurate to 1300-1400 yds, but I've never heard from anyone who tried that kind of range. I think 600 yds is pretty darn good, but I never saw him fire it so I can't say he was being entirely truthful. I'd love to have one while milsurp ammo is still available and relatively cheap, but the rifle is outta my league $$ wise for now.

 

[WardenWolf]

As far as the need to shoot light ball ammo goes, I hear some people saying that using a recoil buffer designed for the Kalashnikov in a PSL will allow up to the 180ish grain ammo. Anyone have anything to say about this?

No. No. And more no. It's not just the receiver that's the problem. It's the bolt. The bolt cannot handle the abuse of 180 grain loads. It beats the hell out of it.

Regarding the scopes, the Romanian scopes are lit by tritium, not a battery-powered lamp. Tritium has a lifespan of around 11 years. Because of this short lifespan, Romania issues new scopes directly to the military, and when they expire they package them with new export PSL's. The scopes thus vary in condition, but none of them still light up. Most are in good, serviceable shape and can be counted on to hold zero extremely well and for the turrets to do their jobs. I replaced mine with a new Russian 8x42 scope, though. This one does light up, and allows me to actually see my target at 100 yards. Other options are also available, including a Russian-made rail mount that allows the use of Western optics centered over the receiver.

 

[Dr. Unclear]

Just fired my new PSL yesterday

I bought a Romak/PSL at a local gun show a while back and just got out to the range with it yesterday. I shot it side-by-side with a Finnish M39 using Polish surplus.

I was very pleased with the accuracy. Once I got the scope sighted in, I was getting repeatable tight groups. Bullet holes simply appeared where I wanted them to appear. Recoil was noticeably less than the M39 (as expected due to the spring/gas action).

The scope is also a kick. Aside from the 70s ComBloc cool factor, the scope is clear and bright with good eye relief. You can set eye relief to match your positioning by moving the rubber sleeve forward or back. The markings and chevrons really help with making on the fly adjustments for elevation.

I did have feed problems though. 3 out of say 40 rounds didn't feed properly. I found this thread actually trying to figure out why this happened. I appreciate the input from Mike and others that likely this is related to my mag. I'll check it out tonight.

Anyway, my shooting buddies were all pretty thrilled with it as well. I'm very happy with the purchase. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in an accurate rifle with an AK-style action.

 

[doubs43]

My Romak-3 was made in 2001 and doesn't have the bayonet lug. It did, however, come with the 4x Russian scope with a switch controlled illuminated reticle. I've since replaced that scope with an 8x Russian scope. Both mount on the receiver side plate.

AlpineMike, has the bayonet lug on yours been altered to prevent mounting a bayonet?

Here's mine:

 

[alpinemike]

doubs43 great looking rifle! Yup mine has an altered bayo lug. From what i gather the bayo will still lock on, they just wiggle like hell.

Man five round clips are tough to come by!

 

[doubs43]

Thanks Mike. Mine came with one 5-round mag and one 10-round mag. I'm thinking of picking up a couple of extra mags while they're not too expensive.

 

[WardenWolf]

Nice. Mine has a bayonet lug, but the wings were ground off. I like it that way, because it means it's effectively a military PSL aside from the receiver, and was built on the same assembly lines.

The boys:



Left: PSL.
Right: Converted Saiga .223 with Romanian furniture.

I liked the PSL's stock enough that it was the only stock I would consider when converting my Saiga. Excellent comfort, and the recoil plate solves the problem of its surprisingly sharp recoil. Interestingly enough, the PSL is lighter weight than the Saiga on account of the fact that the .223 barrel is an underbored 7.62. The Saiga, being shorter, feels more "handy", though. I can flip it directly to my shoulder and it locks in solidly. I like it even better, because I've got the same manual of arms and the same general feel for both my larger and smaller rifles.

 

[alpinemike]

where did Ohio Gun Guy go? this just kinda turned into a free for all!

 

[doubs43]

Very nice indeed Mike. I like the looks of both rifles. What is your opinion of the .223 Saiga's accuracy compared to the average 7.62?

 

[alpinemike]

In short gun guy, go get one while you still can!

 

[WardenWolf]

Very nice indeed Mike. I like the looks of both rifles. What is your opinion of the .223 Saiga's accuracy compared to the average 7.62?

Shoots 2-2.25 inch patterns at 100 yards. The 7.62 Saiga shoots about the same, reportedly. Your typical AK shoots 3-4" patterns. Theoretically, a .223 AK will be more accurate because it will make the barrel bow less. Particularly in the case of a Saiga .223 where the receiver is the same as the 7.62 version and the barrel is an underbored 7.62 barrel (same outer diameter as the 7.62, just the hole is smaller). It's accurate enough for light hunting, though. I've got some javelina meat in the fridge to prove it. I had a scope, but I broke it and have yet to replace it. Optics won't be outlawed or in short supply any time soon, so I've been focusing on other stuff.

I've also yet to get my PSL sighted in. I need a proper benchrest. The benchrest I have works fine for light rifles like the Saiga. It does NOT work for boomers like the PSL. The gun jumps too much and moves the benchrest too much, and I can't sandbag it. It also does not hold the gun steady enough for sight adjustment. You get what you pay for, though. A $30 benchrest is not going to work for an expensive exotic rifle. To the original poster: get yourself a good benchrest for your PSL, such as the Lead Sled. You need something that will keep the rifle steady in the rest so you can adjust the scope without losing your aim on the target.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Very interesting, I may have to spring for one, you guys aren't curing me of my curiosity .

I though of another angle....

Has anyone converted a .308 saiga to a dragunov stock and added a scope. What is the longest saiga barrel available? I researched some old posts, but dont see anything current. On todays market. Could the conversion be made to and be less expensive than a romak 3 at 850?

Thanks

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Found an old picture from someone on Google.

What do you think about cost in current market?

For those of you with Either a Romak or a Saiga or Both.....What about the accuracy of a saiga vs romak?

 

[WardenWolf]

The Saiga and the PSL are designed for 2 different roles. The PSL is designed to be an actual sniper / designated marksman's rifle. As such, it's got various reinforcements designed to accurize the weapon. They can typically shoot around 1 MOA. The Saiga .308 is designed to hunting accuracy. It was reinforced only as far as necessary to effectively handle the .308 round, and typically gives a 1-2" pattern, depending on gun. 1 MOA Saiga .308's do exist, but they're rare. Pricewise, they're about the same for a basic Saiga .308 (not the deluxe model with the thumbhole stock and proper trigger group). The PSL is $750 from AIM Surplus. Basic Saiga .308's WERE $550, but they've gone up quite a bit. You have to convert a Saiga .308 to get it to look and feel like a PSL, though, or get one that already has a forward trigger group (the deluxe thumbhole stock version) and swap the stocks.

Pro's / Con's:

PSL: It's a slightly better rifle. More accurate. Significantly lower recoil due to muzzle brake. Lighter weight, as well. Takes SVD-bracketed scopes. No 922(r) compliance problems as it's exempt as originally imported, and you have no reason to change it.

Saiga .308: Widely available non-corrosive American ammo. Takes AK-bracketed scopes. You have to convert it and fit a brake to make it comfortable to shoot. Polymer mags. Have to deal with 922(r) compliance. More expensive when all is said and done.