Finding THV's

[gendoikari87]

again take a look at the data on the link. It's very simple science people. Easy to understand, and even calculate.

 

[bigfatdave]

Isn't this the same person who couldn't pick ammo for his new Ruger mkIII 22/45, and was going to stoke it with THV for defensive purposes?

 

[Jim Watson]

There was another Euro-tech high velocity bullet, I forget the name.
The material was copper and the nose was a simple 70 degree cone without what Dean Grennell called the "snowplow" contour of the THV. It seemed to penetrate and "splash" about the same way.

I think that at pistol velocity and on typical pistol targets the velocity matters more than the shape. I have wondered whether a round ball with low sectional density and little bearing surface might not do well in the high velocity camp.

 

[M-Cameron]

yeah i read through the "science"........those figures were nothing outstanding or even out of the ordinary......

secondly, i never saw it compared to "standard" ammunition........

and third

The initial problem with the THV ammunition was its high cost. It was then discovered that pressures were frequently too high, and that barrel wear was much faster than usual. What finally killed it off seems to have been a change in US legislation which prevented export to the USA, the target market. SFM subsequently closed down.

that coupled with the fact that NO ONE picked it up tells me that it was a failure as a viable round.

 

[ofitg]

Gendoikari87, if you want to experiment with lightweight high-velocity bullets, have you considered casting bullets from tin?

In 9mm for example, a mould designed to cast 100-gr lead bullets will drop tin bullets weighing approximately 65 grains. Tin is perfectly legal, and casting bullets would be a heckuva lot easier/faster than turning them on a lathe.

I don't think there are any moulds available to provide the THV's "gee whiz" nose profile, but that "gee whiz" nose profile might cause feeding problems anyway (?)

Personally, I would feel a bit nervous about the THV's poor penetration - not even six inches in tissue simulant - while the experts recommend a minimum of 12 inches. Are you so worried about your neighbors' safety that you are willing to sacrifice your own chances for survival?

 

[gendoikari87]

Isn't this the same person who couldn't pick ammo for his new Ruger mkIII 22/45, and was going to stoke it with THV for defensive purposes?

yup, just because I know alot about them in theory, does not mean I know everything I need to, manufacturing standards can't really be seen by looking at them, and that tends to mess with the reliability.

I think that at pistol velocity and on typical pistol targets the velocity matters more than the shape. I have wondered whether a round ball with low sectional density and little bearing surface might not do well in the high velocity camp.

It would have a high co-efficient of drag, a large surface area to transfer energy, and a large caliber to increase the efficiency of the round as Efficiency is related to Vinitial/Vfinal times e ^kt/... crap I can't remember the rest of the equation... I'll have to go re derive it again.

but basically it would do everything that a hollow point would do. but be less stable. (typical designs help with the rifling. )

Edit: equation is (Initial volume/Final Volume)^nr/mc -1

Gendoikari87, if you want to experiment with lightweight high-velocity bullets, have you considered casting bullets from tin?

In 9mm for example, a mould designed to cast 100-gr lead bullets will drop tin bullets weighing approximately 65 grains. Tin is perfectly legal, and casting bullets would be a heckuva lot easier/faster than turning them on a lathe.

I did not think of tin, that would actually be good for an accurate plinking round at high velocity... I'll have to research that more.

Personally, I would feel a bit nervous about the THV's poor penetration - not even six inches in tissue simulant - while the experts recommend a minimum of 12 inches. Are you so worried about your neighbors' safety that you are willing to sacrifice your own chances for survival?

The depth is less, but the width means you can hit someone in the left lung and take out the heart (or at least a little left/right of the sternum), or a gut shot and take out .... well everything important. Don't know exactly how the stack up to hollowpoints though. and it wouldn't be the neighbors you would be protecting with them, it'd be your family.

 

[TriTone]

If you're looking for self defense I believe you should stick with well established commercial rounds, either hollow point, or pow'r ball. If you're worried about over penetration there are rounds that are designed to reduce that risk. These THV rounds may be an engineering fascination to you, but if they worked well in their applied roles, its likely they would be more prominent. That said, if you made your own i doubt they'll feed well in a semi thats designed to feed traditional ammo, such as ball or hp, I'm not an expert though so who knows.

 

[Jim Watson]

Zinc is a legal pistol bullet material. Only 64% the density of lead, harder, and cheaper. There used to be some zinc bullets made for lead pollution averse indoor ranges, but it has been replaced by copper and tin. Most such ammunition is shot by government agencies and they don't care about the cost.

Who said anything about rifling with a round ball? A smooth bore and round ball made to the same precision as conventional would be accurate enough for most defensive handgun applications with no energy expended to engrave and spin up the bullet. Of course that is not legal for an American Commoner.

 

[gendoikari87]

He began by developing a bullet capable of penetrating steel plate, glass and bullet-proof jackets while keeping the effective range short. Initial experiments were in 9mm Parabellum and the THV loading in this calibre was taken as the starting point. Tests showed that the blunt 'THV type 2' point flattened on impact, so a sharper point was used, together with a sharper shoulder. To retain good feeding, this was then fitted with a rounded plastic nose cap. Ironically, this meant that the bullet point had to be made blunt again, to retain the cap. At this stage the South African Police became interested and adopted the round; cartridge headstamps indicate that it has been in service since 1991. It is sometimes known as the 'monsap' cartridge (MONad + South African Police).

aparantly they have found service somewhere, not sure on the accruacy of this as that article is several years old.

 

[ofitg]

The Glaser Safety Slug was another "gee whiz" design which boasted shallow, devastating wounds. I think the law enforcement community has shied away from the Glaser because sometimes things went wrong - something (eg, an arm, or a piece of furniture, or whatever) caused the bullet to "splash" before it reached the bad guy's torso.

I know the "over-penetration" issue has been argued thousands of times. Perhaps it boils down to an individual's assessment of the probabilities....

What are the chances that a wild shot might penetrate an apartment wall and injure a neighbor? Perhaps one in 100? One in 50? One in 20?

What are the chances that something "will go wrong" with a THV or Glaser, causing it to superficially wound a bad guy (instead of putting him down)? Maybe one in 10?

 

[gendoikari87]

Good points, That's probably why the frangible was adopted so readily. I've also heard of some new "prefractured" rounds, something similar to frangibles, don't know that much about them.

 

[TriTone]

Here's another thread where some the talk was thrown around.

http://www.silencertests.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4777

Thv comes in about the seventh post down I believe

 

[Owen Sparks]

The now defunct Gung-Ho magazine did an extenstve article on THV ammo back in the 1980's. In one test they shot a raw 10 pound pot roast with the TVH .357 round. It blew the pot roast in half and it landed 10' away from where it was shot. They called it "The most devistating round we tested" This was shortly before these rounds were outlawed by our betters in Washington.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

2 fold, the first is simple physics (or more like simple Calculus) if you take the bullet traveling forward you can find the acceleration of the air outward as a function of the curvature of the bullet and the forward velocity, once you find the function for the acceleration of the air outward you can simply take the integral from tip to the edge of the curve and voila you have the velocity of the air.

I have no idea what that means. But, I do think you're far too wrapped up in the theory. How does this translate to the real world, in actual living human tissue? Even the common test medium in use, ballistic gelatin, is still only theory. And will those light, oddly shaped bullets feed in an autoloading firearm action? (This is a common problem with existing frangible ammunition, which also uses light/fast for the caliber bullets.) The "baddest" bullet in the world will do no good hung up on a feed ramp.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Look at the pot roast test above.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A pot roast is not living human tissue, with its varying densities ranging from solid bone to a semi-liquid center. Nor is ballistic gelatin, plastic jugs filled with water, dead pigs, live billy goats and all the other things that have been tried over the years. If these funky bullets have been tried and found to actually work, we would be seeing them today. (Maybe even from Extreme Shock. ) I am more concerned with real world results rather than theory, although theory has its place.

 

[Robert Wilson]

I'm going to bite my tongue re. the supposed virtues of these rounds, but I do want to register a complaint: "simple" and "calculus" should not be allowed to appear together in the same sentence. I'm flashing back to some very unpleasant college episodes...

 

[gendoikari87]

Cal II or cal III? Cause even I hated cal III. Much more so than differential eqautions.

anyway, I think one of previous posts is right about no damage potential being enough to cover for the poor feeding of the round, that might be the reason for it's poor adoption, coupled with the fact that it was seen as a "cop killer" round.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

A prototype bullet conceptually based on the THV: .45 ACP Devel 155gr Radially Dynamic Solid Copper Alloy Prototype Bullet Cartridge

Wound profile:

 

[gendoikari87]

any comparison to a normal .45, cause the .380s were giving wound profiles like true 9mm.