Firing "Non-Firing Indian Replicas??

[BillWM]

It seems the endless debate regarding the use of non firing Indian made repros has not faded.
I know enough about firearms to know not to drill a touch hole in a repro made in one of many backroom shops in India. ( in fact I know much more). Let's set the stage by referring to these as modern non firing repros as the distributor does and not compare to originals as this is a non issue.
I have read claims without any documentation support of materials used, quality of manufacture, testing, gauging etc.
I will use the website that claims steel tubing is the barrel material. hey use a now defunct identifier number. Their liability waiver says volumes.
No MPI, LPI or piezo pressure gauges used to produce these bad boys. In fact I have read many times the locks require some serious work to get them to function similar to originals.
Still I see the idea that drilling a vent hole magically converts these wall hangers into functioning and safe firearms. No proof markings, no makers marks, nothing.
How can 1/16" hole have the power to convert lead into gold?
What is constantly said is the lower price and affordability makes all safety precautions fly out the window and is a good reason to drill. The hole makes these instantly worth much more and on par with real firearms? Can I have the same thing for less than 1/3 the price?
Home proofed barrels is the next step after the hole. People that have no idea what is involved, to magically proof their repros into a highly crafted tool.
If I sound sarcastic, I have meant to.
So far no one has given credible answers that prove these repros are ok to shoot.
Some say barrels are made of axle steel, axles are solid not tubular. Actual steel designations do not list these types of steels as barrel steels. And don't use the poor argument that originals were iron because they did fail too. We now have good standards because people don't want to be injured pulling the trigger, ever.
Modern firearms must meet minimum standards for safety, reliability etc, and all these things are not allowed in this particular limitation of liability statement, other distributors mileage may vary.:

Limitation of Liability
In no event shall ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, incidental, special consequential damages, to property or life, whatsoever arising out of or connected with the use or misuse of its products or advice. Furthermore, ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. accepts no liability whatsoever for the safety, reliability, durability and performance of any of our companies' products and are accepted by the customer on an "As-is" basis. The customer assumes responsibility for the actions of their government entities (ex. Customs) and ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. is held accountable for the delay or seizure of goods by said entities.

Or, is it just me and I should ignore all the red flags, drill that vent hole and ram a ball down the spout? Other have done so without issue! We don't know how or where exactly these repros are made but the claims some make would have to be based on this knowledge?? Or not?

I cannot find similar liability statements from Winchester, Colt, Perdersoli etc.....
"no liability whatsoever for the safety, reliability, durability and performance of any of our companies' products"

Will this post create a firestorm of musketry?

I can say this as a gunsmith, that anyone saying take it to a gunsmith to drill the vent hole and this will make the repro serviceable, is not giving you good advice. In my opinion a gunsmith worth his salt would never drill a non firing reproduction if he even cares for his clients.

I would like to hear opposition to my argument based on fact, not here-say or because I shot a million balls through it and i'm still kicking.

I know many like these repros and stand by them, nothing wrong with enthusiasm for firearms, real ones or wall hangers if they remain as intended.

 

[arcticap]

ACCESS HERITAGE

ACCESS HERITAGE Inc.
Serving You since 1995
https://www.militaryheritage.com/index.html

Access Heritage Inc. is the business name of Military Heritage. a specific company that may indeed sell guns that are able to pass proof house testing in CIP countries.
I'm not saying that they do or don't, only that many India guns have passed European proof house testing.

How do I know?
Well there are European gun shops that also sell India made guns, and they must send them to their gov't proof house before sale.
Yes, they re-build and tune them to make them into better functioning guns that are more historically correct.
But they're still the same basic parts from the India manufacturer.

I think that you're right that if a gun isn't purchased from a reputable distributor, who buys from a reputable India manufacturer, then a person may not know what they're getting.
There are plenty of back ally shops all around India and Pakistan that sell guns of questionable quality for the tourist trade.
But some distributors have been in business for many years, and don't want people to get hurt which could tarnish their reputation.
Guns can be thoroughly tested and disassembled, and it can be determined whether it's safe to fire or not.
Some reputable muzzle loading shops sell India made guns and don't seem to have safety concerns about them.

I don't have direct knowledge about Military Heritage guns.
Legalities aside, do you have any direct knowledge about the quality of their construction?

If people don't trust them then they shouldn't buy them.
Yet folks often shoot true antique "wall hangers" that are hundreds of years old without blinking an eye.

If you don't want to work on them then you shouldn't.
But if another gunsmith does then perhaps they should have the customer sign a disclaimer that they've been forewarned about any dangers, just like Military Heritage in effect does.
Most folks who buy these guns realize that the vent holes aren't drilled so that they can be shipped around the world without running into import - export restrictions.

Of course some individuals may bring unsafe guns into the USA from anywhere in the world.
And that's always going to be a risk if buying a gun from a second hand source that's not a reputable distributor.
And there can always be defective guns made by any manufacturer whether it passes gov't. proof testing or not.
Just look at what happened with the most recent Lyman - Investarms recall because some breech plugs were defective. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lyman-rifle-failure.841810/

 

[BillWM]

Yes I've handled some of these repros including Military Heritage. Lots of heavily buffed metal, rather clunky and not true to originals. The vent holes are not drilled because then they would be viewed as a firearm and be required to be proofed and operate safely. Makers don't do this because this costs $ and they would have to manufacture barrels with correct steels and finish the locks to make them function properly and safely. They say it is to get these repros to you but it's more to keep their profit margins high. No other gun manufacturer makes firearms that can't fire for ease of distribution. They can stamp anything they like on the repros, pretend markings for steel type used, spurious manufacturer name etc. Since they are non firing replicas they don't have to adhere to any regulations. Markings they put on them are a sales gimmick to make potential customers believe they built it as a real firearm, but they didn't and they do not claim so. In fact they refuse to give loading data of any kind. They know about liability issues and avoid them by strictly claiming these are wall hangers. You get what you pay for, maybe, and the theory that drilling a hole transforms these into true firearms is a myth, or the distributors would tell you this. I am amazed people take the risk to save a few $100 bucks, my eyes are worth more than that. That people have had good luck with them, that is good, no one wants to see anyone get hurt. Selling one of these that has been made operable puts full liability on the seller. I would refrain from selling any that have been made operable, you don't know what the new owner will do except blame you for his mistake. The law will see a non firearm conversion that you did, enabling others to sustain potential injury.
The point is you do know what you are getting, a wall hanger, a non firing replica, just as the company tells you, the distributors guarantee nothing, zero, zip.
You cannot just look at one of these and say hey it looks ok to shoot. One must know how it was made, with what etc. I don't know how to inspect seamless tubing never intended for blackpowder to be stuffed down and the tube obstructed at one end with a hole drilled to ignite the powder. The problem lies with its appearance, similarity to a firearm that makes some assume all sorts of things. Haa, I must be long winded!
Caveat emptor !

 

[arcticap]

Caveat emptor !

A great majority probably get sold to re-enactors who use them as noise makers.
That doesn't mean that they can't be used as full working guns.
The stocks may not be as strong as those made from more expensive wood, and I think that's where some of the savings are.
The re-enactors who use them know more about them.

Someone on another forum had a thread all about the one that he bought to be a record for others.
He took the breech plug out and inspected it closely.
And he proof tested it with the load that he felt was appropriate.
There's some knowledgeable people who know what they're getting into, and don't mind sharing what they've learned.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

BillWM: If you don't want to convert or shoot an Indian BP rifle or musket don't do it, I wouldn't. But, that said, you are not King of the Universe nor are you everyone's mother so please don't try to brow beat everyone to your frame of thought. I could ask the same questions as to your credentials. After all, this is the internet and everything posted here must be true....

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well what I have bought was sold ready-to-live-fire. I don't drill touch holes in guns that I don't build.
I know of two gentlemen who buy from the same company where I bought mine, one fellow lives in Germany, one fellow lives in England.
All of their muskets with barrels made in India went to official proofing houses.
All passed.
IF we had such a house here in America, I'd submit at least one of my four, just for the fun of it.

Otherwise, so far so good...,


70 grains of 2Fg, and 1 ounce #6 shot.

LD

 

[Dave Markowitz]

 

[BillWM]

Interesting to know a proofing house will proof these replicas. What I am looking for actual facts rather than I just shot it and it did not fail.
Can we find factual evidence of the materials used in their construction? The ones I have seen appear highly buffed, not well fitting and locks rough in operation.
It is possible the seller was flogging seconds as owners of these tend to have quite good to poor varying levels of quality. I would think you would have to inspect each one as there are differences. I don't think I'm bashing anything, these are by the companies own description non firing reproductions and are not expected to be a working firearm. I am questioning the level of workmanship and quality of steels used in manufacture compared to what is required for actual modern firearms. This is because the companies who make reproductions are not forthcoming with any information we can guarantee as accurate. These reproductions are modern so we should apply modern methods to ascertain their safety. I don't want to use a 300 year old method of proof that still saw barrels fail. We must expect modern methods to guarantee our safety as expected with todays proofing of arms.
The reproductions Dave mentions as being proved, do you have photos of these with their proof markings? I would like to see this because this means they view them as real firearms once the hole is drilled.
I work with actual supported facts, I want the proof (a pun?). I don't think I'm "bashing" asking for facts and proof these reproductions are safe to convert to fire.

Steel Horse Rider provide supported facts that these reproductions are safe to shoot and I'll be glad to re access. So far I have not been presented with anything
that proves otherwise. I am not criticizing them as wall hangers or fun to tote around and shoot blanks. It is the conversion to shoot projectiles with normal loads without having the correct information of how these are made, the metal type etc. I know the company has posted seamless tubing, with an outdated SAE steel grade.
However that grade is not a steel used for firearms barrels. Seamless tubing is not manufactured as firearms barrels.
Let's get real info on these to have an educated view. Present me with the facts.

 

[Bill Raby]

Just save up a little more money.

 

[BillWM]

Bill I have no interest in purchasing a replica. I have plenty of real firearms. This is only research to see if we can actually gain any useful information as to the quality and safety of these reproductions. The re enactors I know use use firearms produced as firearms.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I am not interested in owning one for any purpose so I don't care what they are made of. I also do not care if some else want so shoot one so why are you so wound up on gathering information on something you don't want or own? Just curious as to why someone would get so worked up over something that shouldn't affect you.

 

[Darto]

I have the double barreled flintlock pistol from Middlesex, if the flint is good it fires everytime, one of my most reliable.

The onery old cute who runs the place has a FAQ:
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/faq.shtml

...quote
Q #26: Are these functioning muskets that can actually be fired?
A: Sigh...of course they are. I have to answer this dumb question several times a day.

What would be the point otherwise? Who would put 100+ hours of forging, polishing, engraving, carving and sanding a fake toy gun? This is one of those questions that baffles me and insults me a little. Still, there are a certain percentage of people who will read this and STILL send me a stupid email asking if they are real guns that can be fired. Do you walk into a restaurant and ask if those steaks them folks over there are eating are real meat? Do you walk into a car dealership and ask if that uber-macho minivan with factory hubcaps can actually be driven? Of course not, unless you work for Alan Funt (people under age 30 aren't expected to know who Alan Funt is, ask your parents). So what in the world possesses people to keep asking me if guns are real?

For the people who STILL don't grasp that these are real guns, I'll reply once and for all: YES, THEY ARE REAL GUNS CAPABLE OF BEING FIRED. That percentage of people mentioned above will STILL write or call to ask anyway, "just to confirm". I don't know how they manage to find their way out of the bathroom.

Q #27: I have heard that "India guns" are supposed to be wallhangers and blow up. Is this true?
A: When I was a kid, everyone "knew" that if you watched color TV from closer than 25', it would "ruin your eyes". Also, if you sat in the front row of the movie theater, it would "ruin your eyes". Now that I think about it, I was even told that wearing rubber boots indoors all day at school instead of changing into your sneakers would "ruin your eyes". Now, I never sat in the front row at the movies and we didn't have a color TV, but on several occasions I wore my big green rubber boots all day as school. This must be why I wear glasses today, right?

This is the same bizarre logic that rumor mongers use when they decide that a gun is safe or unsafe. They are usually either clueless people who want to seem intelligent by sharing some titillating but completely false factoid with you or maybe they are just plain malicious liars.

ANY muzzleloading gun will blow up if it is loaded wrong. Our guns come with instruction manuals and the recommended powder charge, ball size etc for that particular gun. That's all we can do to keep you from doing something stupid and putting insane charges in it. If you disregard the instructions and use the wrong powder or the wrong load, there is no way we can stop you. A muzzleloader is different from a modern gun in that it requires you to think. Some people just don't think.

Reenactors are the worst, there seems to be a mindset where they think it is OK to put lots of powder or the wrong powder to make some mythical "bigger bang". Real muskets firing real bullets do not make big bangs, the sound of a musket firing with a ball is more like a loud cough. Let's not let the facts get in the way of a childish desire to make a musket sound like a cannon though, right? Safety be damned, it's only a blank, right? Wrong.

I got so sick of answering this question that I wrote a whole article about it, complete with photographs. Specifically, the article explores the safety and authenticity of Indian vs Italian replica Civil War guns as compared to originals.

Please read the article by clicking here.

If you don't want to take the time to educate yourself by reading the article, I'll sum it up for you here in just a few sentences:

There is no safety issue with Indian made muskets. They are not "wallhangers", nor will they "blow up" if loaded, maintained and handled properly and are not any different from any other musket in that regard. In decades of studying weapons, I have learned of muskets from ALL sources (originals, Italian, Spanish and Indian) that have been destroyed or "blown up". Every single modern made replica musket accident involving a barrel failure has been proven to be an operator error with the exception of an Italian made Armi Sport Enfield whose breech blew apart.

If you are a reenactor, you should be studying facts, not rumors. The fact is that these muskets are perfectly safe.
...unquote

 

[Darto]

original Middlesex


Mine (after ageing)

 

[bannockburn]

Darto

What a neat double barreled pistol! I have fancied getting one ever since I saw one in the movie "The Scarlet Pimpernel" with Leslie Howard and Merle Oberon.

 

[BillWM]

Interesting story but no supported facts and adding insults does not prove your point it only strengthens mine. The long winded article attacks other makers guns and makes unsupported claims. Claiming Indian law the reason for no vent hole. Strange because reputable Indian firearms manufacturers can and do export their arms. The kicker is they are described by the company as "non firing replica" so why spend more $ to make them something else?.
Anyone can claim it's built like a real gun but is it? Yes I know years of shooting them..... and so on claiming no issues, I get that, I'm not disputing that people fire projectiles from these and enjoy it..

I asked one basic question that has continually been avoided, and I've been insulted just because I ask "what is the actual manufacturing methods used and what actual steels are used." Provide proof these non firing reproductions are made as real firearms and that government proof house will accept these for proving!!
Anyone who writes basically a "book" to bash non believers in my view could be hiding something. It does not instill confidence in me but quite the opposite.

The available videos of Indians making reproductions does not satisfy any belief they are producing real firearms.

Really didn't think I'd get so much negativity for asking for supported facts of how these repros are made. I was only interested in the truth. I may never get it!

 

[gtrgy888]

The state of replica cap and ball revolvers is only marginally better. Does anyone think the manufacturers recommend mouse fart powder charges because those are in any way historic?

 

[BillWM]

What's really weird is that I was not even referring to Middlesex Village's stuff, I quoted Access Heritage's repros.
Darto posts Pete's huge rant.
I read much of Pete's website which takes time and could be greatly condensed, but he believes the stories must be told of how people can screw stuff up in every which way. I'm not sure if he likes re enactors as customers or tries to scare them away!
One thing is clear, different vendors are selling different quality repros and some sell as working firearms. But no one can say who exactly makes them.
100 hours labor in one? The fit, finish and quality of material would all be much higher if this was the case, to use his own rationalizing why put 100 hours into something if it does not have the quality. Joke of the week "the people that manufacture these Indian repros are not allowed to handle actual firearms" Quote from Pete.
So in essence they are not firearms. Lots of contradictions.
It's been a BLAST !

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Interesting to know a proofing house will proof these replicas. What I am looking for actual facts rather than I just shot it and it did not fail.
..., these are by the companies own description non firing reproductions and are not expected to be a working firearm. I am questioning the level of workmanship and quality of steels used in manufacture compared to what is required for actual modern firearms. This is because the companies who make reproductions are not forthcoming with any information we can guarantee as accurate. These reproductions are modern so we should apply modern methods to ascertain their safety. I don't want to use a 300 year old method of proof that still saw barrels fail. We must expect modern methods to guarantee our safety as expected with todays proofing of arms.

So some observations...,


You mention that you are looking for "facts", "...rather than I shot it and it did not fail"....well first, shooting them when they are sold to be fired live, and their not exploding or even bulging is a fact, pertaining to that particular piece

You presented this statement, " These are by the companies own description non firing reproductions and are not expected to be a working firearm." THAT is an assertion, as you use the plural "companieS"..., show US the quotes from the various companies that sell only non-firing reproductions where they say they are not meant to be fired, and I will bet they are not the same companies that sell muskets with India origin parts with the intent that the customer shoot them.

Next, your wrote, "..., and quality of steels used in manufacture compared to what is required for actual modern firearms." This is a nonsequiter. I think that you think the steel used in American made muzzleloader barrels is made of the same steel used to make modern firearms, but it's not. It's often 12L14, which cannot be used for a "modern" firearm. In fact the reason why with historic replicas of muzzleloaders, you cannot shoot smokeless powder is because the steel is NOT the same as used in modern firearms.

Then you wrote, "..., This is because the companies who make reproductions are not forthcoming with any information we can guarantee as accurate. These reproductions are modern so we should apply modern methods to ascertain their safety. I don't want to use a 300 year old method of proof that still saw barrels fail. We must expect modern methods ..., ." This is sophistry...

First, because you always have to take any information that you get from any company regarding components on faith, unless you take the item to a lab for independent testing. You have NO guarantee of accuracy when it comes to information, period. Next, ss for "applying modern methods" this indicates that you don't understand the proofing methods for black powder arms, because..., proofing is NOT the same as modern firearms. Modern cartridges all have pressure limits that are standardized, and so when a modern firearm is chambered for a specific cartridge it must meet an international standard that is the same for every proofing house around the world that is part of the C.I.P. Manufacturers in countries not members of the C.I.P, such as the United States, meet those requirements as they see fit, because they wish to make international sales, and ensure that their product will meet those standards. HOWEVER, there are NO fixed pressure testing standards for black powder, NONE. In fact even the testing methods are up to the individual proofing houses, as the individual houses determine what will be used as a test, before the proofing house places its stamp or stamps on the proofed piece. SO..., you have NO idea if any of the proofing houses is using 300 year old method or not, AND it's a fact that some barrels today, modern or black powder, still fail during proofing, and also after having been proofed. In fact CVA had one model of inline recalled, because although the barrels in that model went through a proper proofing house in Spain, that model inline had several situations of a burst barrel. It is also a fact that when it comes to flintlock muskets made in India, more of the proofed CVA rifles failed, than I've found documentation of flintlock muskets sold ready to fire, with parts from India, failing.

Finally, you wrote, " ..., to guarantee our safety as expected with todays proofing of arms." Again, you demonstrate a fundamental LACK of understanding of the proofing process. When a firearm, modern or black powder, is proofed at a proofing house, you know it will meet whatever standard the test is intended to check...and you know this ONLY on the day the piece left the proofing house. After leaving that proofing house, you have NO guarantee, NONE, that the piece has been properly maintained by the owner or owners, and thus no guarantee that it's safe to fire. Further, there is no proofing house nor proofing done in the United States, so, you are by faith relying on each manufacturer's testing methods to ensure the firearm was safe the day it left the factory. When it comes to a custom built muzzleloader using an American made barrel, you are relying on faith that the breech plug was properly seated, and the barrel was properly made.



LD

 

[BillWM]

"you demonstrate a fundamental LACK of understanding of the proofing process."
II really didn't even want to get into that because my question is regarding un proofed non firing repros being made to fire.

I am not talking about the fitness of a repro after it is sold, or if someone maintained it or not, it's irrelevant. Some other manufacturers fail proof, this is why they are proofed to weed out barrels that have faults. Failures from other companies products does not have anything to do with the subject of repros that are not proofed

YES the sellers I am talking about do not represent them as firing arms. However there are claims they are made well enough to fire full loads and are dependable even though their liability claim says otherwise. Why is it so difficult to find the actual maker? I've read "several makers" but never being named. Steel types, a bit murky here.

1: It's easy, what actual steel is the non firing reproductions?, I understand this can vary and vary by maker.
2: is the machining/construction meet proper standards for gunsmithing, does the breech plug butt against the internal shoulder in the breech, are the threads cut correctly? The barrels are seamless tubing, what grade are they and their tensile strength? Barrels for firearms typically do not use tubing.

****I am clear in the question, the discussion is only for: Non firing Indian made reproductions ONLY. Some claim these are made as actual firearms.

I have read Access Heritage repros and other similar made Indian repros. If I was not clear in regards to this my apologies, I am trying to be clear now.

I do not include Middlesex village that sells Indian made firing guns. They crept into the conversation. Now if I had seen and went over their products in detail I could give an opinion but I cannot because I've not seen them.

Please don't assume, I am talking about non firing repros with liability waivers similar to this but then they claim the opposite about the quality of their manufacture:
"Limitation of Liability
In no event shall ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, incidental, special consequential damages, to property or life, whatsoever arising out of or connected with the use or misuse of its products or advice. Furthermore, ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. accepts no liability whatsoever for the safety, reliability, durability and performance of any of our companies' products and are accepted by the customer on an "As-is" basis. The customer assumes responsibility for the actions of their government entities (ex. Customs) and ACCESS HERITAGE Inc. is held accountable for the delay or seizure of goods by said entities."

READ: NO liability for safety, reliability, durability and performance, products are an "As is" basis.

However they extol the virtues of these repros being reliable, safe, durable and will perform well. People get triggered when I ask questions about them, ever wonder why? Might have something to do with their liability clause.

No sense continuing asking for answers, they forever elusive. Possibly sometime I'll come across another repro I can actually strip down, inspect and test.
I've read the locks can use some major work while others are better.

This post was made partly due to a friend of mine who has a Potsdam replica pistol and he's been badgering me to drill that vent hole, I won't.
I have liability issues with them too !

Let's sum things up. I am not saying these repros are good, bad or ugly. I only had questions in the event one might try to modify them to fire and apparently some get triggered now because they have heard the questions before. If the questions were answered with supporting facts the questions would fade away.

I'm told I just need faith in them, but i'm not all that religious to have faith in an un known quantity.

 

[arcticap]

The barrels are seamless tubing, what grade are they and their tensile strength? Barrels for firearms typically do not use tubing.

****I am clear in the question, the discussion is only for: Non firing Indian made reproductions ONLY. Some claim these are made as actual firearms.

There's some individual ML builders in the US who use seamless tubing for barrels.
They are sold in firing condition.
Building muzzle loaders is as much of a cottage industry in the US as it is in India.

Let's sum things up. I am not saying these repros are good, bad or ugly. I only had questions in the event one might try to modify them to fire and apparently some get triggered now because they have heard the questions before. If the questions were answered with supporting facts the questions would fade away.

On the Military Heritage product page for the 1731 Potzdam model, it states:

"Specifications

As the pictures attest, this reproduction is faithful to those of the period. The .62 calibre barrel is made of tempered seamless modern steel (type:BS970 no.080M40) with a tight breech plug. ........................
...............As with all our other flintlocks, the vent is not drilled (read details below) so we can ship easily to your door throughout North America and to Europe and the UK. Aside from that they are exactly like the originals.............
..............We sell historically accurate muskets and pistols in a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with various local, state, national and international firearms regulations, along with shipping company policy restrictions. This means the product can be shipped right to your doorstep. A certified gunsmith may decide to alter a musket or pistol to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any changes from its present state. Please read our Conditions of Use and Legal Disclaimer. The customer is expected to be aware of the laws of their locality that govern products of this nature.

This is shipped from our US warehouse by the post office. Canadian customers are charged in USD and Customs will charge applicable taxes. --->>> https://www.militaryheritage.com/pistol3.htm


When I Googled the spec's listed for the seamless tubing, one source states:

"BS970 no. 080M40 is actually a medium carbon steel - it's type 40 carbon with a En number of 8. It IS heat treatable. Typical tensile strength is 700-850 N/mm. In other words, with the proper heat treatment, you can get about 110,000 psi of pressure resistance out of a tube made of this material." --->>> https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=2137&page=2#:~:text=breeches are threaded.-,BS970 no.,700-850 N/mm.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another source states:

7. Applications of EN8 Carbon Steel

EN8 steel material is suitable for the all general engineering applications requiring a higher strength than mild steel such as:

• general-purpose axles
• shafts,
• gears,
• bolts and studs.
• spindles,
• automotive and general engineering components,
• other general engineering parts etc.

http://www.astmsteel.com/product/en8-carbon-steel-080m40-bs-970/

Another source: --->>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/bs970-080m40-en8-steel/

I know the company has posted seamless tubing, with an outdated SAE steel grade.
However that grade is not a steel used for firearms barrels. Seamless tubing is not manufactured as firearms barrels.
Let's get real info on these to have an educated view. Present me with the facts.

What do you mean outdated?
The steel is currently being produced and has been around since the 1940's.
Even a British website states that it is a popular grade of steel.

"080M40 is a very popular grade of through-hardening medium carbon steel, which is readily machinable in any condition." --->>> https://kvsteel.co.uk/steel/080M40.html

 

[BillWM]

Thanks for the info. I mentioned the steel designation is superseded by a different number and the dealer was using the older number, I looked it up on a manufacturers site and quoted that..

"can get about 110,000 psi of pressure resistance out of a tube made of this material. Granted, the Indian copies are not designed, treated or proofed for anything even close to that pressure". Not that it's required when you're dealing with about 11,000psi.

What can be said about the lock mechanism for dependability and function?

 

[MAKster]

So the Middlesex owner belittles potential customers and says would you ask that question in a restaurant? I sure would if it said on the menu "not for human consumption." That is equivalent to the disclaimer on these Indian reproductions.

 

[BillWM]

Well said

 

[noelf2]

Meh... This argument/debate is soooo old and tired. I would expect the India guns would be as safe or safer than those made here in the 1700's. Fact is, it appears that these pipe bombs don't blow up like the haterz claim. Now I have heard a lot of function horror stories, which would be my bigger concern.

 

[BillWM]

Yes sooo old. Seems it's not worth asking.