First AR-15 Suggestions

What type of AR-15 should I get?

  • Colt 603 M16A1 Style

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Colt 705 M16A2 Style

    Votes: 5 50.0%
  • Colt 653 "A1 Carbine" Style

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Colt 723 "A1E1 Carbine" Style

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Colt 727 "A2 Carbine Style

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Total voters
    10
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I guess that you could consider this response as unhelpful, but I'm coming from a different perspective. First, with limited funds, I would purchase my first AR for home defense in 5.56. Second, I would avoid an SBR, because I don't want the ATF in my business. Third, if I wanted to shoot 55gr I would use a 1:9 or slower twist. If I wanted target, I would go 1:7 20"+ barrel and avoid 55gr. For home defense, you are looking at a 16" barrel.
That said, for me, I prefer a shorter rifle for home defense and prefer the Tavor X95...but this is more expensive and for another discussion.
 
I guess that you could consider this response as unhelpful, but I'm coming from a different perspective. First, with limited funds, I would purchase my first AR for home defense in 5.56. Second, I would avoid an SBR, because I don't want the ATF in my business. Third, if I wanted to shoot 55gr I would use a 1:9 or slower twist. If I wanted target, I would go 1:7 20"+ barrel and avoid 55gr. For home defense, you are looking at a 16" barrel.
That said, for me, I prefer a shorter rifle for home defense and prefer the Tavor X95...but this is more expensive and for another discussion.
I too have limited funds and may go with a 1:9 twist as a middle of the road rate.
 
When I hear...

I think Vietnam era SP1 or M16A1, triangle handguards A1 Upper, 20” barrel 1:14 or 1:12 twist.

Your original post needs refining as to your desire for said AR15. It seams you did define it more with this:

If the above is the case then I would look at the two options below.

If you want a good "irons only shooting classic" than I would look hard at:
https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/a1-government/

If you want a good "irons with the ability for optic shooting classic" than I would look hard at:
https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/20-govt-rifle/


A pinned 14.5" to 16" length (M4 clone) makes no sense for target shooting and what your desires are for the purchase. Those would be more CQB/SD or all around ranch rifle purposes.

Two thumbs up second for the above. For what you describe in a quality rifle at reasonable cost, I’d say Wyndham nails it. Nothing wrong with the Brownelles rifles, just second fiddle in my opinion.
 
I too have limited funds and may go with a 1:9 twist as a middle of the road rate.

As this is going to be your first ARs, you'd be best served with going with one of the lower/mid tier cost options just to see if you like the platform. ARs are plentiful, but not liked by everyone. I have several for many different scenarios. If you are thinking target practice over home defense go with the 20" bbl with an A2 stock and if home defense is more important then a 16" bbl with a collapsible stock. You just said above that 1:9 twist will be your preferred option, so start there an build.

Next question is optics. Will you be using the iron sights or adding a scope/red dot. If you want optics I'd move with a flat top and add BUIS to use when the optic is off.

As I said, lots of options so build it on paper and then buy what you can find that is closest to your ideal gun. Good luck and have fun with the search. Sometimes searching for a particular gun is just as fun as buying it.
 
Target shooting is your objective you say? What sort of target shooting requires an AR 15 in 5.56 that a good 22LR will not satisfy for much less money?

I mean… do you want a list? There are lots of types of target shooting where an AR 15 is vastly superior to a .22. Anything at 300-600 yards for one (especially if the .22 has irons and you can’t dial your scope for drop), or something like a 3 gun event. Hell we can even get into the competitions where it is explicitly required that you use an AR 15, like CMP High Power.

.22s are fun and all, but they’re nowhere near a “do all” target gun.



If you want to stick with a purely retro, no optics setup, I’d go with an A2 clone. The longer barrel will give you better velocity, but it will also give you a longer sight radius which makes shooting with irons easier. Short barrels, especially with carbine gas systems and fixed front sight towers, will have a noticeably shorter sighting radius which has the effect of magnifying any errors you might make in sight alignment. A longer gas system should also be a bit softer shooting (not that any of these are heavy recoiling guns).

Sight wise, I’d prefer the A2 design again because they’re easier for the shooter to adjust. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t like having to use tools to adjust my sights. You might have to do a little bit of adjustment on the front sight (which requires a tool), but I’d expect most of your adjustment would be done with the rear sight (no tools).

Is a 1 in 7 twist rate better for 14.5" barrel to compensate for less range?
The optimum twist rate is determined by the length of the projectile you’ll be shooting. More commonly you’ll hear it referred to as correlating to bullet weight because most bullets have a similar construction (jacketed lead) and in order to make a bullet of the same diameter that has a different weight, you have to change the length.

Twist rate doesn’t have anything to do with adding range to your gun. You can sometimes say that in order to use a bullet which performs better at longer range (usually both heavier and longer/more streamlined, which adds weight), a tighter/faster twist is required for that bullet to perform well. But you can’t take the same bullet, spin it faster, and expect to be able to shoot further (assuming the bullet is stabilized by both twist rates).

Probably too much detail. In short, 55gr and 62gr are probably the most common .223 bullet weights on the market right now, so I think it would be worthwhile to make sure your gun works with both of those as opposed to getting a 1:7 barrel that is optimized for heavier bullets that you don’t plan on using.

I’d probably recommend something like a 1:9. It’ll do well with most of the bullets you feed it until you start to get into dedicated long range loads (in which case you’ll probably just want to get a different gun to optimize long range accuracy as opposed to being a military clone).

As a final point, unless you want to be exact with your clone, I’d recommend getting an upper with an optics rail and putting a removable carry handle on top of that. It will give you all of the sighting functionality of a real fixed carry handle, but will let you add optics in the future without requiring that you buy/build a completely new upper.
 
I think what could also help narrow it down for me is what sight system is better: A1 sights that are more simple and sleeker or A2 sights that are more adjustable?

A1 sights are good out to 300M with no adjustment, the A2 simply makes it easier to add elevation past 200M. As far as windage... unless you are lining up at Camp Perry, it's unlikely you will need to adjust windage beyond the initial set with your ammo of choice. I like my A2 sights, but A1's are fine with me, too.

As an aside, while you are AR shopping... if you happen to find a nice flattop, don't despair. You can get a Daniel Defense A1.5 sight for it, that replicates the A1 sight in a detachable base...

rC28NYdl.jpg
 
I've assembled, shot and competed with many AR rifles. .223, 5.56 & .308. What I know above all is that the standard AR trigger is horrible. No, actually worse than horrible. Gritty, heavy, creepy etc etc ad nauseum. Whatever you buy make sure it has a very good trigger. There are many on the market, I use Geissele, but others are also good, Timney, JP and many more.
If your final choice has the ubiquitous horrid AR trigger, immediately and not later, replace it so you don't learn bad trigger control habits.
 
Just a reminder, in my original post I said I am not interested in a flat top upper or any sort of optic. The key word I said is "Retro": ie Cold War era type AR. Only A1, A1E1 or A2 uppers with built in carry handles allowed. Please try and check the original post before commentating if you can, I appreciate it.
I know a lot of you want me to get a flat top, but I know what I want. This is only really a gun range use only type gun but MAYBE used for home defense (I have neighbors close to me so I don't want overpenetration).
Also so far TNTEsales seems to have the type of uppers I want.
 
You might want to shoot some other folks ARs prior to buying a trigger. Flat/curved/single/double action..Lots to consider.
 
Here's a guide to what I mean in the poll.
Colt 603 M16A1 = 20" A1 Upper
Colt 705 M16A2 = 20" A2 Upper
Colt 653 Carbine = 16" A1 Upper
Colt 723 Carbine = 16" A1E1 Upper
Colt 727 Carbine = 16" A2 Upper
 
"I have neighbors close to me so I don't want overpenetration."

Yes, overpenetration compared to birdshot, but compared to handgun rounds..maybe not.
 
I also kind of like the look of the "slickside" A1 upper receivers without the forward assist. Should I go with or without a forward assist?
 
I compete in service rifle matches at a gun club range. I wanted an A2 clone so I contacted a gunsmith friend of mine to put an upper together for me. He had a bunch of carry handle receivers and other parts laying around his shop from uppers he had collected from guys that wanted a flat top. He removed the A2 sight and installed a target peep which allows better accuracy, but the small aperture is not very good for defensive purposes. I wanted this setup as this rifle is strictly for bullseye shooting. I used a lower that I had that I put together.
I also like the looks of the A1 and A2. I do have a couple flat tops to serve as defensive arms.
 
I also kind of like the look of the "slickside" A1 upper receivers without the forward assist. Should I go with or without a forward assist?
I don't know why you would need a forward assist for target practice and for other uses I wouldn't see this feature as vital.
 
I mean… do you want a list? There are lots of types of target shooting where an AR 15 is vastly superior to a .22. Anything at 300-600 yards for one (especially if the .22 has irons and you can’t dial your scope for drop), or something like a 3 gun event. Hell we can even get into the competitions where it is explicitly required that you use an AR 15, like CMP High Power.

.22s are fun and all, but they’re nowhere near a “do all” target gun.



If you want to stick with a purely retro, no optics setup, I’d go with an A2 clone. The longer barrel will give you better velocity, but it will also give you a longer sight radius which makes shooting with irons easier. Short barrels, especially with carbine gas systems and fixed front sight towers, will have a noticeably shorter sighting radius which has the effect of magnifying any errors you might make in sight alignment. A longer gas system should also be a bit softer shooting (not that any of these are heavy recoiling guns).

Sight wise, I’d prefer the A2 design again because they’re easier for the shooter to adjust. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t like having to use tools to adjust my sights. You might have to do a little bit of adjustment on the front sight (which requires a tool), but I’d expect most of your adjustment would be done with the rear sight (no tools).


The optimum twist rate is determined by the length of the projectile you’ll be shooting. More commonly you’ll hear it referred to as correlating to bullet weight because most bullets have a similar construction (jacketed lead) and in order to make a bullet of the same diameter that has a different weight, you have to change the length.

Twist rate doesn’t have anything to do with adding range to your gun. You can sometimes say that in order to use a bullet which performs better at longer range (usually both heavier and longer/more streamlined, which adds weight), a tighter/faster twist is required for that bullet to perform well. But you can’t take the same bullet, spin it faster, and expect to be able to shoot further (assuming the bullet is stabilized by both twist rates).

Probably too much detail. In short, 55gr and 62gr are probably the most common .223 bullet weights on the market right now, so I think it would be worthwhile to make sure your gun works with both of those as opposed to getting a 1:7 barrel that is optimized for heavier bullets that you don’t plan on using.

I’d probably recommend something like a 1:9. It’ll do well with most of the bullets you feed it until you start to get into dedicated long range loads (in which case you’ll probably just want to get a different gun to optimize long range accuracy as opposed to being a military clone).

As a final point, unless you want to be exact with your clone, I’d recommend getting an upper with an optics rail and putting a removable carry handle on top of that. It will give you all of the sighting functionality of a real fixed carry handle, but will let you add optics in the future without requiring that you buy/build a completely new upper.
Thank you! That's what I want to hear: straight and to the point with what kind of AR I should get. Nobody can seem to give me a straight answer so far. I want something that can sort of do it all but still be light enough to carry if I need to.
 
I don't know why you would need a forward assist for target practice and for other uses I wouldn't see this feature as vital.
The only problem is retro slickside uppers are only available with A1 sights. So far everyone is saying A2 sights are better.
 
Here's something important to know that can help: For the record I did shoot a rented Colt 6920 (M4 style) at an indoor range (only 40 rounds because ammo shortage). I was decently good with it at short range, slightly more recoil than I thought, kind of heavy. I did handle a Brownell's XBRN16E1 or BRN-16A1 at a gun show and I remember thinking the triangle grips were a bit too bulky for my hands, the sights seemed good.

Also here are some images of the ARs I had in mind:
Colt 604
604%20R%20D.jpg
AR-15 A1
HR%20R.jpg
AR-15 A2
A2%20R%20w-MC.jpg
AR-15 A1 Carbine
11129764_01_nodak_spud_m16a1_carbine_colt__640.jpg
A2 Carbine with A1E1 upper
723.jpg
A2 Carbine Upper with A2 sights and M4 Barrel
727%20R%20door%20open.jpg
 
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So after reading this, I think it’s important for you to know you’ll need to make some compromises. You need to decide what’s most important.

If price + performance is most important, get a 20 inch govt profile a4 upper and a carry handle sight.
if price + versatility is most important, 16 inch middy with a flat top upper.

The retro look is going to cost you. You have to decide if it’s worth it to you.
if aesthetic is most important, just buy what you want. We can’t tell you what you like.
 
So after reading this, I think it’s important for you to know you’ll need to make some compromises. You need to decide what’s most important.

If price + performance is most important, get a 20 inch govt profile a4 upper and a carry handle sight.
if price + versatility is most important, 16 inch middy with a flat top upper.

The retro look is going to cost you. You have to decide if it’s worth it to you.
if aesthetic is most important, just buy what you want. We can’t tell you what you like.
That's fair. I just wanted some suggestions. I just don't have any affection for modern ARs, they may be more practical but they lack "soul" if that's a thing. Versatility is key for me.
 
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I was going to recommend taking a look at Brownells retro-styled ARs, as my experience has been that most of the time Brownells house-branded stuff is decent, if not top-tier, and their retro series sounds like it would be in your wheelhouse without paying the pony tax.

That said, looks like pretty much all of them are currently out of stock right now...
 
Please try and check the original post before commentating if you can, I appreciate it.

I suggested the flattop with the DD A1.5 sight as a compromise. Flattops are far more prevalent than A1/A2 style AR's, and can sometimes be less expensive.

So far everyone is saying A2 sights are better.

Versatility is key for me.

I'll tell you from experience, a carry handle is not versatile... a flattop is. Further, if you re-read my comments about the A1 vs A2 sights, if you are shooting under 300M, it really doesn't matter.
 
Yup..flattop is where it's at.
If you do want to use the AR for defense then do more research and pay more money to get an out of the box good trigger. If not, save up front money and add a drop in trigger later. This is what I have done with all but 3 of my ARs. Of the three not upgraded, one was a stock A1, one was an exotic..non milspec ultra light carbine and the last was sold as a target AR with weights in the stock, long barrel and good trigger.
 
I think at the end of the day, I might just go for a A2 carbine clone, probably a 723. It just has a lot of features I like: retro cool factor, used by armed forces, combination of A1 and A2 features (simple A1 sights and pencil barrel, A2 grip stock and flash hider) and handiness. I appreciate the help, but I just don't think any of these suggestions are right for me.
 
Proly been mentioned but you could save up for a real Colt SP1. My dad likes his. He was US Army 1972-1974
 
Proly been mentioned but you could save up for a real Colt SP1. My dad likes his. He was US Army 1972-1974
The one I have with the Sp1 (besides cost) is that they only came with slabside lowers with no magazine fencing. From what I understand troops didn't like this cause mags could be accidentally dropped so they added it. Why it was not on the civilian version I have no clue.
 
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