First Battle Use of .30 US Carbine?

[Lone Star]

Does anyone really know when the little .30 US Carbine first saw any significant battle use? I don't think the Marines on Guadalcanal had any when they landed there in August, 1942. I think the troops invading North Africa in November of that year did have them.

Anyone know when the little .30 first drew blood from an enemy? Did any reach the ill-fated US forces in the Phillipines before they were defeated?
I know that they had some Garands, both the very early "gas trap" sort and the later ones. They reported favorably on them, but the Japanese had overwhelming forces and the M-1 couldn't make enough difference to win.

 

[MistWolf]

The M1 Carbine entered service in mid-1942. The M2 in 1945

 

[kBob]

Carbines where in use by the 1st Ranger Battalion before they left North Africa. Whether they went ashore with them or they were issued while in North Africa I do not know. There are photos of some of the scouts using them before being brought in to re train and create 2nd Rangers and I believe there is a comment about such use in Alterri's (sp?) book. It was interesting to me that Col. Darby seems to have chosen to carry an M1903 Springfield at least as late as the invasion of Italy despite the availability of both the carbine and the M-1 rifle.

-kBob

 

[MattShlock]

My Dad handled 'em all at the time. The '03 Springfield was also his favorite...

 

[doc2rn]

Lets look at this from a military standpoint. You have a light carbine that you can carry plenty of ammo for like the M4s of present day. You can recon by fire but on the light/ anemic side as rounds go.
You have new semi-auto 8 shooters in your favorite hunting calibers. You see many a time where the guy gets slide bite while loading a new clip. He bangs away til you hear a ping, bad guy pops up and shoots him. Not a real good reason to switch from old trusty 03s.

 

[Fishbed77]

He bangs away til you hear a ping, bad guy pops up and shoots him.

Aaaah. A Garand myth that just won't die, despite there being no confirmed accounts of this ever happening.

 

[DougW]

Sure! Just fire a few rounds with the Garand, flip an empty clip in the air, and when the German/Jap soldier pops up to shoot you, you and your buddies shoot him.

Works every time!

 

[threoh8]

If the carbine entered service in mid-42, it's possible the first combat use was against the ... French (!) in North Africa (0peration Torch).

 

[Al Thompson]

LTC George spoke highly of his while he was in the 5307th. Just checked his book and he agrees no carbines on Guadalcanal, despite hearing runours about the carbine for "about a year previously".

As to "no confirmed accounts", a few years back one of our members talked to a family member who served in the Pacific. It wasn't a primary concern, but when the fighting was very close (Munda on New Guinea for example), it was something to consider.

 

[Flfiremedic]

The Marine Raiders had them on the Makin raid 17-18 Aug 1942.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Marine raiders also had Reising SMG's, Johnson rifles and other odd weapons. Those 'new fangled' M1 rifles and M1 carbines were no doubt looked on with skepticism.

 

[velocette]

The first battle use of mine was when my wife found out how much I paid for my Inland carbine. No blood was lost, but it was an epic battle.

Roger : )

 

[USSR]

He bangs away til you hear a ping, bad guy pops up and shoots him.

Obviously someone who has never fired a Garand. Unless the bad guy is within spitting distance, he ain't gonna hear no ping.

Don

 

[Hummer70]

I don't know first use but a guy I used to shoot smallbore prone with told me he shot a Jap 7 times (starting at 50 yards)O and he did not go down till his Sgt. explained the facts to the Jap with a Garand. One round and he went down. He later checked him out and there were 8 holes in about a 4" circle center chest. 7 carbine and one 30.06. He said the first dead GI he passed he got his ammo and Garand and left him the carbine and ammo and kept it the rest of the war.

 

[jaysouth]

Al,

What is the title of LTC George's book? I had a copy purchased at the NRA museum bookshop when it was up on Rhode Island Ave. The last borrower has not returned it and I am resigned to purchasing another copy. I caught up with George at a Maryland High power match and he autographed my copy.

In his book, he goes looking for Japs in another unit's lines and his weapon was an M-1 Carbine. He got a head shot and the bullet went through both sides of the jap's helmet(and head).

His unit, Merrill's Marauders, is now considered an ancestor(and member unit) of the Ranger Regiment.

If you can post the title, it is a good read for anyone interested in firearms.

 

[HexHead]

He bangs away til you hear a ping, bad guy pops up and shoots him. Not a real good reason to switch from old trusty 03s.

Utter nonsense. A buddy of mine saw an interview with some former German soldiers, who were asked about that. They laughed and said with all the other shooting going on, they never heard "the ping".

 

[mr.trooper]

No joke. Silly nonsence that only survives in our conciesness due to the errornet and bad history chanel programs.

 

[JustsayMo]

A Scoutmaster, role model and friend of mine served in 7th Cavalry during the Korean War. He liked the Carbine and the M1 very much. Along with the M2 (Ma Deuce) he felt the Carbine was superior during the human wave attacks - which he said the carnage on both sides was "horrifying" and haunted him for the rest of his life. He never said it was ineffective. He liked the 30 round "banana magazines" and commented on its reliability. He preferred the M1 when range was a factor and was impressed by how well it penetrated "cover."

 

[dfariswheel]

The first probable use of the M1 Carbine was likely in the hands of the OSS in Burma.

It was ideal for jungle use both for the American OSS people and for the tiny Kachin tribesmen the OSS led so it was rushed into their hands as soon as any were available.

 

[jstein650]

To keep terminology consistent,

M1 Carbine
M2 Carbine (select fire .30 carbine)
M1 Garand (30'06 semi auto)
M2 "Ma Deuce" Browning (50 caliber machine gun)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

ON COMBAT USE:

Marines at Guadalcanal started with Reisings, Springfields, Johnsons, but as production satisfied Army needs, the Marines at Guadalcanal started receiving Thompsons, M1 Carbines and M1 Garands in the later stages of the campaign. (For an "anemic" round .30 Carbine penetrated jungle cover better than .45 ACP and Leatherneck published reminisences of Marines who dumped Reisings and Thompsons both in favor of the M1 Carbine.) I guess the Army had M1 carbines first though.

Wikipedia notes "The first M1 carbines were delivered in mid-1942, with initial priority given to troops in the European Theater of Operations (ETO)." Cited to: George, John, Shots Fired In Anger, (2nd ed., enlarged), Washington, D.C.: NRA Press 1981, ISBN 0-935998-42-X.

PING

I have stood next to guys shooting M1 Garands in the vintage and modern military matches (Garand was in use before and after 1946 to it gets used in both matches at the club). I wear hearing protection of course but the muffs allow me to hear the range officer's commands. I don't notice a Garand ping, ever. I noticed after the "cease fire" M1 Garand users policing their brass and empty clips. I never heard one eject, next to me.

I recall a guy posted that he interviewed German combat veterans and asked them about the Garand ping. They were like, seriously, in a war zone, with guns firing, artillery, grenades and bombs going off, they never heard a ejected clip ping. Their ears were probably ringing louder than the ping.

My dad served in WWII 6th Army Division, New Guinea and Phillipines, as squad automatic rifleman (BAR), the other guys used M1 Garands. If his BAR was out of service he would use a Garand. In a firefight, no Garand user shot empty with no one else in the squad loaded and shooting, so rushing IF the ping could be heard in the noise would be rushing into most of the squad with some ammo still in their guns.

 

[threoh8]

"What is the title of LTC George's book? "

Shots Fired in Anger

 

[amd6547]

Regarding the ping...
My Father served in Europe and fought in the battle of Falais Gap...hedgerow country where the fighting could be very close.
He mentioned the possibility of the ping being heard by the enemy. Not that it happened, but he seemed to be aware of it.
That was the first time I had ever heard of it...long ago while watching "Combat" on TV.

 

[MrDig]

My Dad served with the 34th Infantry Division 151st Field Artillery Bn. Was in North Africa and Italy.
He Told me that he didn't even see a Garand in his unit until the middle of '43. There may be something to the fact that the 34th was National Guard and the Supply people were prioritizing Regular Army before the Guard Units. But he spent most of the war with a Springfield and a 1911.
I would presume 30 Carbines were the same but presumption is all I can give you. I'm certain Pattons Regular Army had those weapons and they went ashore in North Africa in November of '42.

 

[peacemaker45]

My granddad was in Korea, although thanks to the St Louis records fire and his own reluctance to talk about it, I don't know much about the details of his service. Two (relevant) things I do remember him saying are:

M1s, rifles and carbines both, were fine guns. The carbine was the one you wanted for soldiering, the Garand was a bit better for fighting. Given a choice, I'd carry the carbine.

and:

I've heard a lot of people run the little carbine down. They say it wouldn't put 'em down. Ain't so. Least, I never had cause to complain of it. I expect the rep started with the machine gun carbine. If you missed with the first round or two, the rest of the mag wasn't gonna help much, not the way them things jumped.