Defensive use - 30 Carbine

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Atlas Shrug

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OK, I know that the 30 cal M1 carbine is essentially a handy rifle in a decent pistol caliber. That said, I'm very, very fond of it for potential use in close encounters of the unpleasant kind.

I have a large supply of LC military FMJ. Great for practice, training, and plinking, but poor for defensive use. It should be good brass for reloading, though.

Thus I'd like to hear comments on:

-good factory loadings (HP, SP, TC, not FMJ)
-good bullets to use in handloads (as above)
-any other useful advice in this area

I've not bought dies for the 30 carbine yet, but my default are the carbide ones from RCBS. Any experience in these areas would help too.

The M1 carbine is tough to beat as a handy around the house rifle. It handles well without the close range offset mess of AR15 pattern weapons. It works well with the M1A1 folding paratrooper stock too. When launching a more potent bullet, the picture will be more complete.
 
The RCBS carbide dies work great. I used them exclusively back when I used to reload.

I only loaded FMJs so can't comment on good JHP, JSP bullets for loading.

I know that the commerical JHP and JSP bullets have a very good reputation on the street. I'm suspect you're familiar with Jim Cirillo's results while a member of the NY Stakeout Squad.

It's a good choice and one that I recommend often to non-gun folks who want a handy, inexpensive carbine for defense.
 
I reload for .30 Carbine and use Remington 110 gr. SP's over 15 grs. of Win296. That should be around 2,000 fps. I don't have any test information on the terminal resulst of this - would like to see how well the SP expands.
 
The Rem. 110grain SP is currently the most effective FACTORY offering in my tests. Producing good penetration and .50 expansion. The previous load is a good load as is H110 and Lil'Gun powder. you can't get 130 grain bullets over 1800fps in proper pressures for carbine to run at and bullets have to be seated pretty deep to feed if over 110grains. The .30 carbine kills animals below 200lbs like a .357 on steroids does inside 100yds with 75 being about the reccomended max. I have actually slaughtered alot of goats and sheep with it , preferring ball for lack of meat damage. Even ball thru chest(heart and lungs ) kills pretty quickly(10 seconds) BUT Rem. 110 soft points kill better and faster. Ball thru the brain is REAL QUICK!:cool:
 
So it sounds like the Remington 110 gr. SP is the bullet to order. That will be the default plan. The hand reaches for the Midway catalog....

I'll also stick with the RCBS carbide dies. (Sorry for the bad pun.)

Thanks for the load suggestions. I have some 296 around here, so I'll likely start with that.

I've not read Cirillo's book, but I have heard the references to his high regard for the 30 carbine (using SP bullets) based on NYC shooting fun. I run into folks all the time with high regard for a PROPERLY configured and fed M1. It's usually something that folks admit rather than volunteer, though. I think it's akin to really liking that plump girl from school, but not wanting to be caught kissing her.

OK, no more Saturday night humor.

They are affordable, but not cheap. Same for the ammo. They work fine in standard form, but take tarting up (a bit) fairly well. They do what they are called on, but no more. A very efficient piece when applied properly. This is why it is, to steal a phrase I saw posted here recently "the thinking man's AR" at least IMHO. I'll have to credit that quote soon.

Thanks very much for the constructive comments. Used within its limitations, the little carbine can be quite formidable.
 
14.5 grains of IMR4227 under a 110 grain Speer hollow point bullet blows a hole the size of a grapefruit in a ground hog. Work up your own load though, 14.5 is near max. Feeds every time and is very accurate in my Plainfield. And yep, carbide sizer die only. The other dies aren't carbide. It's just the sizer die. Not that it matters.
Forget about the para stock though. Good shooting requires a proper stock and aimed shots. Be advised that a rifle round, any rifle round, can and will go right through most house walls. If you use a para stock and spray and pray, you are responsible for where those bullets end up.
 
I load the Hornaday 100 grain half jacket in mine for most anything from rodents to deer, really tears the heck out of a deers neck also.
 
Thanks for the continued load suggestions. I'll probably add the Speer and Hornady bullets. I wish Hornady made an XTP for this round, but I didn't see such a thing when I first started checking. I like the XTP in other rounds that I've used it in.

For Sunray - thanks for the concern over penetration, the paratrooper stock, and spray and pray use (as well as the die comments).

On the dies, I'm aware that the sizer is the carbide one. As you said, no issue there.

Regarding "spray and pray" usage, you may rest assured that you are preaching to the choir here, as I'm most definitely NOT that type. I've been to school as they say, and train annually with Louis Awerbuck at a minimum.

On the paratrooper stock - my background is smallbore target shooting, so I'm VERY particular about cheek position, cheek pressure (collective known as "cheek weld" or "spot weld" to HP shooters) in any stock. That is why I'm so picky about any folding stock. I have not liked most of the commercial ones for the carbine that I've seen, but the original M1A1 stock is very useful when well done. To me, the handy size when folded has merit when working through thick brush and not anticipating a need for rifle use (if I expected to need a rifle, I'd have a 308 on me). So set up, I can sling it such that nothing protrudes above the shoulder or below my backside, thus I'm allowed to slink through the brush without hanging up - a constant concern with even a standard length carbine with fixed stock. It also has merit for handy storage around the house (I have small children and thus extra storage and access restrictions).

Due to these advantages, I'm willing to accept some loss of stock rigidity and a less than ideal cheek position. That said, with proper technique (and a bit of sorbothane or mole skin/mole foam adhesive if you need it), the single steel rod can work OK with the 30 carbine. It's not conducive to match accuracy, but this is not the function. I can still hit what I aim at under time and in the defensive situations alluded to above. That's what the goal is here for me - a handy defensive rifle that can ALWAYS be with me in the field, or is near at hand in the home.

Over penetration of walls - hey, that's an issue with EVERYTHING that goes bang. I don't trust the .223 to break up on sheet rock as some say. I know that bird shot AT SHORT RANGE is just like a slug and will blast straight through a sheet rock wall. My .45 ACP will sling 230 grains through most any wall as well. The bottom line is that anything powerful enough to stop a fight will be powerful enough to over penetrate, period.

Thus we all must be very, very careful.

Good thread - let's keep it going.
 
Atlas,

I have loaded some Hornady 90 gr. XTP's. I used 15.8 grs. of Win296 and they chronoed at 2155 fps.
 
PaulTX,

Interesting suggestion there. I generally try to stay with the most mass for the caliber that is reasonable, but no 110 gr. XTP exists. The 90 gr. ones should show good velocity, though. I'll have to research that one too.
 
Atlas,

I also like to stay with a heavier bullet in most calibers - I was just experimenting to see what kind of velocity I could get out of the 90 gr. bullet. I was hoping for a little more velocity - that would have made the 90 gr. more interesting. I think I was trying to get to that 2200 or 2300 fps range where you get some hydrostatic benefit.
 
Sierra makes a very good soft point bullet at 110gr. I've hunted with sierras for years and in many game shootings I've never had one fail to expand, though I have seen the jacket seperate. The 110 bullet is designed to open up at lower velocity (1800-2000fps) unlike the spitzer bullets you'd load in a 30-06.

Sierra also makes a 110 gr hollowpoint witha pointed bullet, you'd getter better long range accuracy out of that profile.

Alternately, though you'd be playing with fire here, sierra also makes a 125 gr spitzer soft point (thats designed as a varmint load for 30-06) that could be a dandy of a carbine round-- provided the longer overall cartridge will ft into the magazine.
 
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provided the longer overall cartridge will ft into the magazine.
Click to expand...

Might need a more compact powder, and/or to compress the powder upon bullet seating... what do you think? Sounds like an interesting idea - a heavier, hotter load.

Anyone tried this?
 
Sven, remember you're dealing with the same sort of gas port problem as with the Garand. You just can't play reloading games with semi-autos and get away with stuff that's okay-to-marginal in a bolt action.

In a small case, it takes very little change in powder charge or seating depth to dramatically increase pressures.

Art
 
I think it's akin to really liking that plump girl from school, but not wanting to be caught kissing her.

.....

They are affordable, but not cheap. ... They work fine in standard form, but take tarting up (a bit) fairly well.
Click to expand...


:confused: Um, are you still talking about the girl?


:D
 
Like I said you'd be playing with fire. You'd have to be carful to stay within sammi spec and still have that 1800+ fps range.

I've never done it, but I'd bet it could be done.
 
I would only use FMJ bullets at the range. Soft points are about the same price as FMJ, but in loaded ammo, they are twice the money, go figure... The best powders to use are W296, H110, and AA#9. I like the #9, 12.0 grain load for the 110 grain bullet. With all the pistol caliber carbines out there, why does the M1 carbine get such bad rep.? It's because of the the FMJ bullet, it wouldn't stop anything, but with a soft point, it is as good as the 357...
 
There is a guy on Tactical Forums who has tested the Rem sp load.
I think it gave 16.5 inches penetration and .54 caliber expansion in calibrated gelatin. This should be more than adequate for home defense. Using a ten or fifteen round mag should give reasonable protection until the PD gets there.
 
In an urban situation with short ranges I think the carbine is a good choice. A lot of guys look down on the carbine, but I've always felt with reasonable accuracy with a SP or HP 110 carbine round at nearly 2,000 fps has got to be pretty effective.
 
Hey Corbon guys: In my own testing of small capacity cases similar to .30 Carbine Lil Gun powder has been a quantuum leap forward in high velocity at low pressure. I would be willing to bet a good load could be found using win . 30-30 125grain bullet and Lil Gun to give 1900fps with correct port pressures for 30 carbine. BTW a carbine has a short stroke piston and is somewhat less cranky about port pressure than Garand family (m-1, m-14) . I read about this years ago when Melvin Johnson was developing wildcats for Carbine. Heck there is even a nasty .50 wildcat that IMHO overstresses the package a bit!:cool: ;)
 
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