First bayonet crime I've heard of...

[cfabe]

This certianly is a tragic situation for all involved. While I credit the family for saying they will not sue for damages, it seems as if the statement is trying to raise questions about the officers conduct. I suppose it is only natural for the family to try to find fault in the officer's actions. It is interesting that there is no mention of why a kid with drug abuse problems was allowed to have access to weapons, that seems like the biggest question I would be asking.

We had a very similar situation to this in my city a couple years ago. A 19 year old guy had gotten high on mushrooms, and was running nude through the streets with a large kitchen knife, breaking windows on homes and cutting his neck and arms with the knife. When officers responded he jumped onto and ran over one cruiser, than stabbed at the drivers window of the second in line, breaking the drivers window. He made a second attack a the cruiser, and was shot by the officer, and died of his injuries. I don't know what the outcome of any investigation was. What was espicially chilling about this death was that the guy was on an IRC chatroom contemplating suidice with other members cheering him on. More info here http://budzsack.com/crazy.html (Be Warned, some of the links from this page are to unsavory websites)

 

[ID_shooting]

For those that are currious, they just showed the rifle on the 9pm news, it is a Mauser, didn't get a good look to see what variant, but deffinately a Mauser. They even had a close up of the tip of the blade, you could see black fibers on it. (our PD wears black uniforms here)

The also showed the shirt and vest, nice little hole right in the middle of each.

I too am wondering why a kid with a history of drug abuse is allowed to collect weapons.

Overall, I side with the cop. I call good shoot. I know I would have done the same.

 

[nhhillbilly]

Even if you have a less lethal weapon available if you are the only officer there and the threat is that close it cut’s you deadly force is the proper response. Less Lethal does not work all the time neither do lethal weapons by the way.

My heart goes out for this officer and the family.

 

[cracked butt]

The kid may not be a Marine, but an old Marine once showed me how the sharp pointy end and the heavy blunt end of a rifle work. A person who knows what they are doing can end you in less than a blink of an eye with a bayonet.
Good shoot by the cop.

 

[CGofMP]

It's time to end Bayonet Crime NOW - click here for details.

As for the idea of Tazing the perp.

Sorry.. No way no how. My Monday Evening Quarterbacking says that the cop waited too long. His pistol shoulda been out of the holster and maybe even aimed at the suspect who was presenting a deadly force scenario.

First step of the first charge shoulda gotten the first bullet.

The cop waited longer than my training told us to wait.

Without knowing the facts, my opinion is "Good shootin there bro!"
Yea I'm crass, but the fact is that you do not charge a cop with a weapon and expect to make it home to take another bong hit. The suspect made the call and caught the lead he deserved. (IMHO)

 

[Teufelhunden]

Given a number of other threads in here, I'm confused. Do we Tase kids or not now?

All sarcasm aside, I'd say the officer did what he needed to do to secure himself and others from further harm.

-Teuf

 

[p35]

Clean shoot, but nothing to cheer about IMHO.

I know a guy whose son was murdered with a bayonet by some idiots who didn't like the color of clothes he was wearing. Of course, it was jut referred to as a "stabbing"- not like the media makes a distinction between knives and bayonets. This was about 1996-1997.

I was just reading Band Of Brothers- again- and was surprised by the way guys with M-1s and M-1 Carbines frequently went with the bayonet first.

 

[Firethorn]

I guess that it's a matter of definitions.

What is a bayonet? A blade adapted to fit the muzzle end of a rifle and used as a weapon in close combat.

A bayonet that's not mounted on a gun is functionally a knife. So I think that if a person is harmed or killed with a bayonet that's not attached to a firearm, it properly fits into crimes commited with a knife. After all, what makes it a bayonet isn't the blade, or the handle, but usually a loop or notch designed to mate with a lug.

In my opinion, and that of many others, an actual incident of "Bayoneting" would require that the bayonet be attached to a firearm.

P35, the son who was murdered, would you say that he was knifed(with a bayonet) to death, or bayoneted to death?

 

[El Rojo]

I would agree that any officer or person that didn't immediately shoot someone who pointed a rifle at them was using great restraint. You have to wonder what a parent was thinking when they called the cops to help them with a gun and bayonet wielding son. Cops shoot people with guns and knives. Let that be a lesson to everyone. If you love your kid and they are poking holes in the walls with a bayonetted rifle, you might want to take care of them yourself. If you are scared about getting nailed for child abuse, call the cops after you disarm him and have them come investigate.

Anyone who tries to paint the officer in a bad light for shooting a rifle and bayonet wielding teen is an idiot.

 

[gulogulo1970]

I feel bad for the father who called the police.

If he is my boy I would rather him kill me when I'm trying to disarm him than get the police involved and have a dead son.

I do not fault the officer one bit. But this serves as a reminder to make every effort to resolve problems without calling the police. Policemen can save your life(they may have in this case), but they can make a bad situation worse in a heartbeat.

 

[cracked butt]

A bayonet that's not mounted on a gun is functionally a knife.

What would you consider a Mosin nagant bayonet to be when its not attached to a rifle? a 12" shiv?

 

[p35]

Well, it was a bayonet not mounted on a rifle- one of those 1900 era German ones with about an 18" blade IIRC. Pretty nasty even unmounted.

 

[Firethorn]

To quote Crocodile Dundee:

That's not a knife.
Now that's a knife.

Now, maybe the 12"+ bayonets do cross into the "Sword" Category.

Now, I have a few kitchen knives of almost 12". I also think about the big hoop the anti-gunnis placed on the mere existance of a lug.

I also own two swords. Maybe calling a bayonet nothing more than a "knife" is pushing it, but without the gun, it's nothing more than a blade, right?

 

[Al Norris]

What facts are known in this case?

A 911 call was made by Bruce Jones, the father of the deceased, Mathew Jones, asking for help. Bruces son was out of control, was punching holes in the wall of the home with a bayonet mounted on a rifle. The 911 operator asked and Bruce reported that there was no ammunition for the rifle. It has been confirmed that this information was reported to responding officer Andrew Johnson. Johnson got out of his patrol car and approached the house. Mathew Jones was hidden in some bushes and came out before Johnson could initiate contact with the father, Bruce, who was standing just outside the door of his house. Mathew charged Johnson, whereupon Johnson shot four rounds at Mathew and killed him.

All of the above is agreed upon by all persons involved. (for those who wish to know, the rifle was an Enfield '03A3. A search of the pages of The Idaho Stateman will reveal a detailed photo of the weapon, as well as all of the related articles written about this.)

The only info that wasn't published, was the info about the ammo being relayed to the officer. That was supplied by a friend of mine within the BPD. Regardless, no one in his right mind would accept that the rifle was unloaded, just on the say-so of other third parties. I wouldn't, you wouldn't, so why would we expect a police officer to accept it?

The controversy appears to be whether or not Johnson retreated while telling Mathew to drop the weapon; whether Mathew actually managed to strike at Johnsons back while he was retreating; whether in fact that Johnson even commanded the boy to drop the weapon.

The boys father is an attorney, who at first said they (the family) would not press civil and or criminal action against officer Johnson, now he seems to be taking a different approach, by calling into question whether or not the officer used force in excess of the circumstances.

In what appears to be a split-second decision, the officer decided to end the confrontation. Bravo, officer Johnson! You stopped the aggression and you survied!

From a side bar on this page:

Matthew Jones, a 16-year-old Boise High student, died Saturday after Boise police officer Andrew S. Johnson shot him in front of his family's North Boise home around 5 p.m. Matthew's father, Bruce C. Jones, summoned police to the home, saying his son was using the bayonet to punch holes in the ceiling of the family's home, according to police reports.

Johnson arrived at the home and got out of his patrol car when Matthew, who was outside the home with the rifle and bayonet, reportedly rushed at Johnson. Police say Johnson moved away to get distance from the boy and was hit in the back with the bayonet before he turned around, warned the boy to drop the gun, then fired four times.

But Bruce Jones recalls the events differently, saying Matthew never got closer to Johnson than six feet and that the officer fired without warning the teen to drop the gun.

If anyone here thinks you can use less than lethal force on someone who is bent on skewering you with a WWII assault rifle, tipped with an 15-18 inch bayonet, then I suggest you go for it. I'll bring flowers for your casket.

The only real question I have, is why the officer didn't wait for backup, before getting out of his patrol car. That is SOP in Boise. However, I'm willing to await for the results of the internal investigation, to answer that one.

It's also quit possible that the same result would have occurred had their been backup... In which case, their might have been 2 or more officers involved in the shooting.

In any case, this particular shooting was a good shoot.

 

[ID_shooting]

"All of the above is agreed upon by all persons involved. (for those who wish to know, the rifle was an Enfield '03A3. A search of the pages of The Idaho Stateman will reveal a detailed photo of the weapon, as well as all of the related articles written about this.)"

I looked for the pics, where did you find these? The paper said it was a japanese rifle, at first look before they mentioned this, I saw what looked like to me a mauser.

Could be an Arisaka 38

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl22-e.htm

Or Mauser

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl02-e.htm

Picture wasnt close enough to tell. One thing I am certian, it has a straight bolt handle, but I could be worng.

 

[Al Norris]

Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I never could find a decent picture of the rifle on the Statesmans website. In the Tuesday, Dec. 21st printed edition, Chief Tibbs and another officer were demonstrating the reach of the particular weapon.

I was in Boise that day to pick up my son who flew in from Camp LeJuene... And he is reminding me that it was an Springfield '03A4 (not an Enfield '03A3 as I described it - I hate kids who look over my shoulder - heck, I hate know-it-all smartalecky kids!!).

Get ahold of that printed edition (local section), ID_shooting, to see it. Your local library may have it. Ours in Rupert does.

By the way, my son the Marine just informed me that the "03A3 is a mauser. That was the year that Springfield bought the manufacturing rights from Mausers patents. Anyone confirm this?

 

[El Rojo]

Al, you are all over the place on this rifle thing.

Enfield '03A3...Springfield '03A4...WWII assault rifle

The Enfield is a British rifle in .303 caliber and has common models of No. 4 Mk 1, SMLE No. 1, Pattern 1914 (No. 3), and so on.

The Springfield series of rifles is the older 1903, then the newer 1903A3, and finally the scoped 1903A4 version.

Finally, I wouldn't call any of these guns assault weapons in an sense as they are not select-fire capable. At least you were getting half of the equation right!

I found the picture and posted it here. I am not quite sure what it is. I thought maybe the Enfield 1914, but it doesn't have the rear sight behind the chamber, but in front. It might be a 1903, but the stock is different. I am starting to think it might be Japanese, since I don't know much about those.

 

[SMLE]

That rifle is a Japanese Arisaka. Looks like a 7.7mm Model 99.
Bayonet is early WWII as it still has the hooked quillion. Jap ammo is very scarce, but that bayonet will go though a car fender like butter and soft armor about as easily.

 

[Greg L]

Sure looks like an Arisaka to me too.

(amazing what a bunch of gun dorks gathered in one place can come up with )

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Let me say first off, that my wife & I knew Matthew Jones. She was one of his daycare teachers and we had babysat him years ago; he was absolutely one of the sweetest and most intelligent little boys I have ever known. That being said, we had pretty much been out of contact with him & his family for the better part of 10 years, and we never knew the troubled young man who so tragically lost his life.

That being said, from the accounts in the Statesman, we believe that Officer Johnson had no choice but to react in the manner in which he was trained. I continue to pray daily for both families.

Matthew's family had asked that in lieu of flowers, a contribution be made to a fund that will promote drug & alcohol warnings to other kids. At Matthew's funeral, his family did not avoid the topic of his drug & alcohol abuse; it was repeated several times as a warning to all of the other kids who were in attendance that there was no such thing as "harmless drug use."

If you can, imagine his father Bruce's anguish at having been the one who called the police, and then seeing his own son killed right in front of him. It is only natural that the Jones family questioned the actions of Officer Johnson, that ultimately ended with their son's death. I don't believe I, or anyone else, would do any different. It is human nature with such a shocking tragedy to look for someone or something on which to place blame, in order to alleviate one's own shock & grief. They have stated publicly that they do not hold Officer Johnson legally or morally responsible for Matthew's death. Don't try to tell me that if this was your own child killed in front of you that you wouldn't be standing there asking why the police didn't use a taser or pepper spray, or whatever other non-lethal means that might have been available.

Further, I can tell you that the family, believe it or not, was not a pro-gun family. They may not have been stridently anti-gun, but when Matthew's grandfather passed away, his mother asked me to take care of selling the guns he'd owned; she didn't really care for guns, & had absolutely no idea where to begin to sell them. I was as surprised as anybody to have learned that Matthew had had a "collection" of WWII-type guns and/or other military firearms of an historical nature. He was, by all accounts, a History junkie, especially in matters of historic battles. There were conflicting reports as to whether Bruce Jones had stated that the rifle was not loaded, or whether he said that he didn't think it was loaded. Again, coming from a non-gun, non-shooting family, if you were to call the police and report this, don't you think it would be natural to wonder if this info had been relayed to responding officers? And if it had, again, from a non-gun/non-shooting family's perspective, wouldn't it be natural to assume that the reponding officer(s) would not feel so great a threat, "knowing" that the weapon was unloaded (the bayonet notwithstanding), that it would never occur to you that your son could be killed, because of his actions?

One last thing, despite the family questioning the officer's account of the tragedy (and besides, 100 people seeing the same event will give 100 different depictions of what they saw), the Statesman reported that the account of a neighbor who did witness the incident pretty well corroborated Officer Johnson's account. When the Police Ombudsman concludes his investigation, I believe that Officer Johnson will be found to have acted properly, legally, and well within the scope of the Boise Police Department's procedures. It is my hope that this does not cause lasting psychological damage to Officer Johnsonand prematurely end his career; he has a wife, and a child of his own.

Perhaps Matthew Jones's untimely death will serve as a clarion call to other teenagers/young adults of the dangers and lethal consequences of drug & alcohol abuse.

 

[Firethorn]

SHOOT1SAM, thanks for the additional details.

This was a tragedy. However, I would just like to repeat the point that when it comes to firearms, the officer must assume that it's loaded, no matter what the person on the phone with 911 says.

A firearm with bayonet mounted, is a very dangerous item. Especially a WWII weapon. You have an accurate semi-automatic weapon firing a larger, more powerful round than the assault weapons of today. You have a rifle that's designed to operate as a bludgeon without significant damage to itself. Then you have a blade that turns the rifle into a spear.

No, dealing with anyone armed with a garand or yugo SKS or similar is a job calling for extreme caution, and extreme measures. This is something for snipers.

 

[ID_shooting]

This was most certainly a tragedy for all involved. As a parent, I pary that I will never be in thier shoes.

There is one matter that I still question. All the emotion aside, and no offence intended, but one fact in htis case can not be disregarded. He was killed becuase he had a rifle. With or without the bayonete, the officer still would have shot.

The kid had a history of drug related issues. Why did he still have access to the weaponry? Is the question that keeps comming up in my mind. Again, as a parrent, if it were my child, the weps would have been locked up and away from said child until such a time that my kid proved responsible enough to get them back.

From what I know of the case here, that question needs to be asked of the parrents. IMO, they have a great part of the blame for this extreemly unfortunate event.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Firethorn: I don't disagree with you at all; being charged by someone with a rifle, bayonet attached or not, who won't stop or respond to the police officer's commands, the officer has absolutely no choice but to shoot. These are topics you & I & others on this & many other forums will discuss, debate & Monday morning quarteback all the time. I'm very certain that something like this was never discussed in the Jones family home. I was trying to give the perspective of a family who had told the police that the rifle wasn't/didn't think it was, loaded. It simply wouldn't have occured to them that this was a potentially deadly situation for their son.

ID_shooting: Your question of why Matthew had access to the weapons with his history of drug & alcohol abuse is extremely pertinent, and I've asked myself that 100 times. I don't know, and as I stated previously, I was surprised that Matthew had the rifles at all. For all I know, when his parents bought them for him (as I assume that they did), they may have been told that they were inoperable, that ammunition was impossible/extremely difficult to obtain, who knows? Perhaps they were purchased long before the drug & alcohol abuse began; again, I don't know. I do agree with you wholeheartedly though, that Matthew's access to them should have been prevented by removing them from the home when the substance abuse began

 

[Sven]

If he is my boy I would rather him kill me when I'm trying to disarm him than get the police involved and have a dead son.

I've read this a couple times and still can't figure it out. Better to die by your sons hand then to have a cop kill him? I'm confused.

 

[Ian]

Tragic, but it sounds like a justified shoot.

But Bruce Jones recalls the events differently, saying Matthew never got closer to Johnson than six feet

When the other guy has an Arisaka (that's definitely what's in the picture) with mounted bayonet, 6 feet is close enough to have that blade sticking out your back. Them things is LONG!