First DA revolver...

[HB]

Well I've been in the market for a DA revolver for a while now. I want something that would be cheap enough to use as a trail gun but also a good choice for a good deal of target shooting. I fired a Python today which made me soil my britches quite readily but I have no where near that amount of money. I wouldn't mind getting a 3'' SP-101 and getting some work done to it but it would likely not fill a niche as of now.


I'd also like to get into "combat" style pistol matches and I prefer the look and feel of a revolver to a semi. It seems that S&W 686 dominates this world in .357 but these seem to be hard to find at a reasonable price in my area. Could a GP-100 or Six series be tweaked to work as well? My only thoughts would be the lack of good holsters and speed loaders.

One final question: Do most non .45 shooters use .357 or .38 level ammo in IDPA type matches?
If .38 level ammo is acceptable, I would simply find a used PPC gun or s&w m10.


Thanks,
HB

 

[Lucky Derby]

If you like the Python but don't want to/can't spend that much look for a used Colt Trooper .357 (not a Trooper MKIII or MKV). Same gun without the high pollish finish and lacking the full lug/vent rib barrel.
A good used pre-lock S&W 686/586 or M19/66 would serve as well.
The Rugers, either the GP 100 or -Six series guns are also fine choices.
As far as IDPA goes, I don't shoot it so I don't know much about the rules although I have heard that you are limited to six shoots in a revolver so getting a seven shot revolver like the 686+ handicaps you.

 

[Lucky 7]

I use a 3" GP100 for my trail gun and couldn't be happier. My Model 19-3 is too pretty to mess up so I had an excuse to buy the Ruger, though now it is trying to throw my Jericho 941 and Beretta off of Winter CCW list.

I don't shoot IDPA anymore (and when I did it was with a Glock 19 and 34), but SW .357s and .38s ruled (not including the Moon Clip guns in there). However, I'd take the GP to compete with as the trigger is oh-so-smooth and I'm very accurate with my trail loads (8.7 to 9.0gr of Unique under a Montana Gold 158gr SJHP). Until you know you like to compete (and commit to it), a Heavy Barrel Model 10/64 for ~$300 wil suit you well.

Regards,
(The other) Lucky

 

[MrBorland]

For under $500, you could swing a really nice IDPA rig (4" S&W M15 from J&G, ReadyTac holster, 3 RT speedloader holders and 3 Jetloaders/CompIIIs).


The LEO trade-ins at J&G are excellent values and would fit the bill nicely. A 4" Model 15 would be perfect for IDPA and informal target shooting:
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info...d-condition/cPath/16_211_431/products_id/4122

They also sell trade-in M64s, the stainless fixed sighted version of the 15.

These trade-ins are converted to DAO and not .357mags. As to the former, you'd shoot in double action in IDPA and will need to master the DA trigger anyway, and to the latter, .38spl k-frames are perfectly fine for IDPA. In fact, some feel the k-frame are a wee bit easier than L-frames to reload, since the holes are closer together. Craig Buckland, an IDPA SSR Champion, uses 4" Model 67 .38spl (the stainless version of the M15) and swears by it.

The L-frame 686 is very popular (I use one), so by all means, if you find a decent deal on one in good condition, consider it. GP100s would be a fine gun, too. The 686 & GP100 might be fairly heavy to carry as a trail gun, so another nod to the k-frame. Any of these would be better choices than a 3" SP101, IMHO.

A used PPC gun can be an excellent value, assuming it's in good shape, but be sure it's IDPA-legal, e.g. 4" barrel or if the barrel's been changed to an aftermarket one. I pasted a copy of the rulebook below. It's worth a read.

As far as ammo, you'd be shooting in Stock Service Revolver Division, so the ammo has to meet a Power Factor of 125,000 (bullet grain times velocity). You don't need .357mag power, but most factory .38spl won't get you there, either, as 125k get into the .38spl +P range. That said, if you're starting out and shooting club level matches, they'll be happy to have you and will very likely let you shoot factory ammo.

You mentioned holster, speedloaders, etc: As far as speedloaders, Jetloaders or CompIIIs are the mack daddy, and really the way to go, IMO. They're available for the k- & L-frames (which also fit the GP100). I'd get 3 speedloaders and speedloader holders.

Check the rule book before buying a holster & speedloader holder. For example, Safariland speedloader holders aren't IDPA-legal (though their speedloaders are - go figure), but Blade-tech's are. My recommendation for IDPA is a ReadyTac holster and speedloader holder (link below). I use the holders, and they're outstanding.

Good luck!

http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=303/Product/REVOLVER_JETLOADER
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12501/Product/COMP_III_SPEEDLOADER
http://www.cpwsa.com/ready_tactical.htm

 

[W.E.G.]

Man.

You are all over the place.

Python to SP-101.

How much money are you willing to spend?

Get a stainless revolver with 4-inch barrel, and adjustable sights.

A gun that makes a good "target gun" is going to be less-than-desirable as a carry gun.

...and vice versa

Four-inch revolvers are BIG.

Here is a 4-inch Security-Six next to a "FULL SIZE" Glock.

 

[HB]

My budget should be around $500 so a used Smith or Ruger would be ideal. I'm almost sure I would enjoy shooting matches so I'd like to buy something that can be tweaked easily rather than having to buy a new gun later. I've shot alot of smallbore and air rifle and a fair bit of NRA Bullseye so I am certainly not too naive about the cost of higher level competition shooting.

I don't know much about action shooting other than what I have read or have seen on TV or the range, so i didn't know if a GP100 would be common enough as a target gun to find a serious gunsmith for it.
Seems my best plan is to find a nice used model 15, a 686, and some rugers and see what fits my hand, shoot a few matches, and then decide if an action job is needed.

Also, get that reloading set up going!


thanks,
HB

PS, Thank you Mr. Borland for a great respons

 

[MrBorland]

Thank you Mr. Borland for a great respons

My pleasure. SSR is a great way to give IDPA a whirl, and I found IDPA/USPSA wheelgunners to be a very friendly & supportive group (fraternity, even?).

Seems my best plan is to find a nice used model 15, a 686, and some rugers and see what fits my hand, shoot a few matches, and then decide if an action job is needed.

An excellent plan. Formal target competition with a revolver is far less common than their use in action shooting, such as IDPA & USPSA, so you wouldn't need to spend big bucks to have a gunsmith accurize it. Besides, these guns are often plenty accurate with the right ammo.

Once you get to some matches, ask other revolver shooters what they'd recommend and if there's someone locally who does their work. It's been my experience that there's often a local guy (often one of the competitors) that does good action work. This way, you don't have to send the gun out, and you get first-hand feedback from him and the people he's done work for.

Eventually, you might want to spring for an action job, a fiber optic front sight, and chamfered charge holes. These things make life easier, but when you see a good wheelgunner smokin' the others with his stock 3" fixed-sighted k-frame, you begin to realize these mods aren't absolutely necessary. At least for a while.

One other note regarding holsters: If you think you'd want a leather holster to do double duty as your carry holster, keep in mind that IDPA mandates that any retention straps/devices on the holster must be used if they're there, so if you go leather, I'd recommend a speed scabbard, rather than a thumb break holster.

Also, get that reloading set up going!

Absolutely. There are some good SSR loads that can be loaded for a third of what factory ammo costs. That said, every gun is a bit different, so once you get your gun, if have access to a chronograph, chrono some factory loads. You might find a factory 158gr LRN load that does well (though I still think local matches will let you use WalMart WWB 130gr at first). Federal American Eagle 158gr LRN, for example, is supposed to have a MV of 770fps, and won't make PF (121.6k). Yet it chrono'd from my 686 at 820 fps, which easily makes PF (129.5k). Also, if you can find some, check out Privi Partizen 158gr LRN .38spl ammo. It may also make PF in my gun, yet it's surprisingly soft shooting.

Good luck.

 

[HB]

Once again, thank you! I find that dedicated competition shooters are generally pretty sympathetic to the beginning shooter and are very helpful. Once last question though... Would going with a DAO be advisable? If I find IDPA less than fun, this would also be a nightstand gun and as such I wouldn't miss SA in the least. I've also heard it is easier to obtain a better DA trigger with the SA notch removed.

Thanks,
HB

 

[MrBorland]

I've also heard it is easier to obtain a better DA trigger with the SA notch removed.

Lighter, maybe, but not automatically "better". Smooth is better than light. Grant Cunningham, a respected revolver 'smith wrote about this a little while ago, and I included links below. Good reading.

As far as the merit of DAO, you'd obviously lose some of the versatility of a revolver, but if you don't think you'd ever use SA mode, there's a real case for rendering a gun DAO. Cunningham wrote about that as well (see link 3). He mostly discusses it in the context of a SD gun, but as far as tuning, he does mention that the DA pull on a DAO gun can be lightened lighter than the same DA/SA gun, since such a tuning DA/SA gun would "result in an unconscionably light SA pull - often below 32 ounces."

My own view is that the real benefits of a DAO aren't primarily via a lightened trigger pull. IMO, the primary benefit is increased accuracy through a faster lock time and less hammer jar. Given the same trigger pull (i.e. spring tension), a lighter hammer will travel faster, reducing the "lock time", which is the time between when the sear broke and the hammer hits the primer. The shorter the lock time, the less time you have to move the gun around during the lag. Also, it's the hammer's kinetic energy that ignites the primer, but it's momentum that jars the sight picture upon hammer strike. Since kinetic energy is proportional to the square of hammer speed, whereas momentum isn't, you can lighten the trigger pull somewhat to achieve both a faster lock time and less hammer strike. Pretty cool. I posted this before, but it's an example of a very light hammer strike with a very light hammer. I didn't have any accurizing done to the gun when I had it tuned, but I immediately noticed an improvement in accuracy. It's a real tack driver, and that video shows part of the reason why.

But...lightening the pull too much can open a can of worms you may not be prepared for, so before you go off and decide you must have a super light action, you need to know about the "cons": A super light action may lack enough hammer energy to ignite all primers reliably. Federal primers are known to be the softest, and those with very light pulls must reload using Federal primers only (and have you ever tried finding them in the last 1-2 years?), and even then, they often have to hand-seat the primers fully in the pocket. A real PITA if you ask me.

A super light action may also expose a bad habit many revolver shooters have: riding the trigger. The pull weight is a result of the tension in the mainspring and return spring. A properly-tuned gun has these tensions relatively balanced, so to seriously lighten the pull, the return gets seriously lightened as well. If you're in the habit of riding the trigger (i.e. letting the trigger push your finger to the start position), you may very well find yourself short-stroking the trigger. Short stroking happens when you pull the trigger before it fully resets - between the 1st "click" on the return (resetting of the hand on the cylinder) and the last (resetting of the DA sear). The result is that the cylinder rotates, without the hammer rising and falling - the gun fails to go boom. Believe me, it's a serious drag when it repeatedly happens in a match while the timer's running.

Finally, for all but a select few, a very light action isn't really necessary anyway. I've also shoot my bone-stock 3" Model 64 with fixed sights in IDPA and have done just as well as with my 686. Most people get it in their head that a light action will enable them to pull the trigger faster. And it may. But here's the thing...IDPA, ICORE, USPSA, etc isn't about how fast you can pull the trigger - it's about how fast you can see and how efficiently you move. A light action will actually impede your progress if you get in the easy habit of pulling the trigger faster than you can see the sight picture.

Finally, one more thing: Any discussion & advantages of DAO mostly assume a bobbed hammer, which those J&G guns, for some reason, don't seem to have. Bobbing the hammer is pretty easy, though. I have a friend with average mechanical aptitude who did his own with a dremel (after removing it from the gun, that it) and it looks and function great.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/good_trigger.html
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/action_performance.html
http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/the_case_for_dao.html