First Garand: where? how much?

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patentnonsense

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I'm about to acquire a stepson with an interest in marksmanship. (His school ROTC team practices with airsoft, and he got quite a shock when their first match used Garands!)

I want to encourage this, and would like to get a Garand for us to work with. One local shop has Springfields in 308 and 3006 for a little under 1100 - does it have to be 06 for competition?

I'd like to get something suitable for (at least) beginning competition, but price is definitely a consideration. I've heard that a lot of the CMP Garands are parts guns or project guns, and I don't have the time and skills to do much work or upgrading.

I don't want to pay for collector value, but from the prices I see on gunsamerica it looks like a new rifle for 1000+ might be my best option. I see there are some "match" models for 1500 - are those worth the extra money if I can find it?

Thanks for any suggestions!
 
nonsense,

Go with a Service Grade rifle from the CMP.

A $500 (+/-) Service Grade will give you a piece of history with a guaranteed servicable barrel and good, solid wood that is shootable (almost) right out of the box.

On a Service Grade you will have to do a routine breakdown and cleaning before you shoot it, and you may want to do some minor re-finish on the wood and put on a couple coats of BLO or Tung oil, but other than that you have a shooter from the word "GO".

The other CMP grades may or may not be "parts guns" and-or "project pieces" (some are, most are not)... but for the most part they are good, solid, shootable rifles, though the barrels and wood may be more used.

I've bough numerous rifles from the CMP and been happy with all of them. Some of the lower grades have indeed been "project" rifles, but then I knew that going in. All of the Service Grades have been solid shooters that only needed cleaning and minor tune up.

Re competitions... What you want depends ENTIRELY on HOW the comp is being run. You need to discuss this with the directors of said comps to see what they have in mind as far as allowed rifle types.

If this is strictly a local type of event, the rules may encompass anything, or be very narrow. Gotta' talk to people to find out.

If they are using recognized rules... the following may apply:

NRA Service rifle and-or CMP-EIC (Leg Matches): An M1 may be fully "Match upgraded" with new wood, new medium or heavy weight commercial "match grade" barrel in either 30-06 or .308, fully bedded, front end unitization, match trigger, match sights, etc.... Prices for these rifles START at $1500 and go up.

CMP's "John C. Garand" Match rules: A rifle for this MUST be in original issue grade configuration with 30-06 chambering. No match upgrades as described above may be used other than a trigger tune up and normal tightening of the gas cylinder. No stock bedding, no shims, no "non-issue" sights, etc. New barrels may be used but must be in '06 and be of issue contour. New wood is OK too, but must match GI contours.

Once you know for certain WHAT you NEED, get back with us and we'll discuss further where to get it....

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever
 
Thanks swamp, that's very good info - I didn't realize CMP Garands came in different grades. I don't want to spend for a serious competitor's piece until there's a serious competitor to use it.
 
The grades don't necessarily correlate to the accuracy of the rifle. The grading is based on several factors including, condition or the receiver and stock, throat and muzzle wear, and 'correctness' of the rifle.

The service grade will give you a rifle with a barrel that will have a lot of rounds left in it's life, and for the most part after some cleaning, will be ready to shoot as is.
 
The grading is based primarialy on the condition of the barrel. They are not graded on the finish or condtion of the wood. There are some that are graded as all parts correct, but even those are further broken down into different levels based on the condition of the barrel.

I would go with a Greek Service grade before they are gone. The Springfield will run $500, and the H&R $550.

CMP Definition for Service grade:
Genuine U.S. Government rifles manufactured 45 to 60 years ago and condition varies greatly from very good to very well worn. Most have been rebuilt/refinished one or more times and have seen heavy use by military personnel. That use is exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the Parkerized finish; there may be some minor pitting on the metal parts, especially on the receiver under the wood; wood that is basically sound but may have minor hairline cracks and may be well used with nicks, bruises and gouges; the three wood components may vary in type of wood (walnut and birch) and condition; components may be a combination of various manufacturers and from different time periods; a barrel that is used, but with a gauged throat erosion of less than 5 that is well within U.S. Army standards. Some of these are not pretty rifles, but each is authentic.
Click to expand...

Field Grade, $375:
Field Grade rifles are mechanically the same as Service Grade, except that throat erosion will be 5 or less on gauge, but muzzle wear may be over a 3 on a muzzle gauge. Selection below only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. All other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers. Shipping and Handling $20.95 per rifle
Click to expand...

Rack Grade, $325:
Rack Grade rifles are mechanically the same as Service Grade above, except these rifles will have a gauged throat erosion of between 5 and 8 on a TE gauge or muzzle may gauge over a 3 on a muzzle gauge or show above normal wear. Finish will be worn and wood will show more use than Service Grade rifles. This grade is ideal for the individual who does not plan to use the rifle in serious competition or who plans to replace the barrel after a few thousand rounds. Selection below only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. All other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers. Shipping and Handling $20.95 per rifle.
Click to expand...

There is also a Correct grade (all parts have correct heat lot numbers for the reciever SN, same barrel condition as Service, show more wear than the Collectors) for $800, and a Collectors (beautiful rifles, $1400, barrel same as Service, but wood is almost perfect) grade.

Plus, if anything is wrong with the rifle when you get it, they will fix it for you.
 
Most matches are fired under NRA Highpower rules. You can shoot under the Service Rifle (M1, M14 or AR15 w/ modifications allowed which do not alter the external profile).

There are occasional JC Garand matches run by the CMP which have strict rules as to what can be done to the weapon (it pretty much has to be stock GI).

The CMP is the best place to get a rifle. I'd look at either a Service or Field grade rifle.
 
The Springfield Armory Inc. rifles (not to be confused with Springfield Armory rifles from the government arsenal of the same name) have a spotty reputaton for quality. The receiver is a new investment casting (as opposed to the forged USGI receivers) - this isn't necessarily bad, as SA Inc. has been using castings in the M1A's for years, and seem to know what they're doing.

I believe SA Inc. also screws on a new barrel.

However, many or most of the other parts are milsurp . . . refinished, but of uncertain history or pedigree. Various M1 forums contain postings of people having problems with these rifles.

Considering that the cost of a genuine service grade M1 from the CMP is about half the price of a "new" SA Inc. rifle, I wouldn't even consider one of the latter.

Last year I bought an M1 through the CMP, and aside from the satisfaction of having it delivered right to my door, I got lucky with a late (c. 1955) M1 still wearing the original barrel and a stock with only enough dings to add character. It functions perfectly, and with iron sights gives me 2" x 3" groups at 100 yards with 30+ year old GI Ball ammo.

I'm well satisfied. :)
 
Why an M-1? With the age of the grandson being young I would assume, I would think a AR would be better for him. Plus the cost of Ammo is about 1/2 that of 30 cal.

I totally agree the CMP is the best place to get a M-1. I would also include a sticky note stating what you plan to use the rifle for. I do believe that starting with a M-1 is a good idea as one has to have solid postitions down in order to get good scores. However, a M-1 is a handfull for younger shooters.

If getting into HP with a AR, I would look real hard at Rock River's NM rifle. These come with Nm sights and a Wilson Barrel. I just shot against one this last week end and the match winner was shooting a RRA. He posted a 777 13X out a poss 800 using a RRA right out of the box.

Someday I hope to be in the same boat with a grandson who wants to shoot something other than off the bench.
 
I have heard the Service grades are harder to get these days. You might consider a CMP 1903 Springfield as an alternative.
 
Greek service grades are readily available right now. Considering that there are no more USGI service grades in stock (and according to the CMP, there won't be anymore), it only strengthens the notion that a Greek SG is a good buy. No telling how much longer they'll last.
 
Why an M-1? With the age of the grandson being young I would assume, I would think a AR would be better for him. Plus the cost of Ammo is about 1/2 that of 30 cal.
Click to expand...

To me, the AR doesn't beat the M1. And giving a youngster the coolest new EBR looking battle rifle isn't always helpful. If I could only have one, it would be the M1 (but thankfully, I don't have to make that choice).

US Service grades are on a 700 rifle backorder, which the CMP does not expcet to fill. Greeek rifles are still available. The only thing non-USGI one of these rifles may have is a replacement stock.
 
CMP plans new store

in Anniston, Alabama. Scheduled to open August, come on over and hand select yours. Anniston is an hour east of Birmingham on I-20. CMP is less than a mile from the Interstate.
 
As much as I like the M1, I would get a AR-15 if you want to use it for competition.

Ammo for the AR-15 is a whole lot cheaper and easier to find.

For the M1 you have 2 choices- surplus ammo or handloads.

You aren't going to get the accuracy potential out of a M1 with surplus ammo.

If you don't reload already, reloading for a gas semi-auto is a pretty big ball of wax to tackle without help or guidance to get you started.

The ARs are easier to load and unload, have more adjustability in their sights, and have a whole lot less recoil. I'm not too recoil sensitive, I'm a pretty big guy and absorb recoil very well, but it isn't easy to keep your position solid and get back on target quickly during rapid fire shooting the big .30.

Th 1903 rifles are far worse in the recoil catgory pluds you have to manipulate the bolt between shots. My 1903 is a lot more accurate than my M1 but I favor the M1 in compettion if only for these reasons.

There I just tried to pursuade someone to buy an AR over a M1. I feel dirty and think I need to :barf: now. :D
 
jefnvk....

I totally agree with you except I just made the move from a tuned 308 M-1 to a tuned AR. I should have done it years ago. 2nd time out with the AR I shot a master score. Points are hard enough to come by.
 
Thanks, I found a Garand.

M1 isn't my choice, it's what they shoot in HS ROTC competitions (rather to my surprise). I may put a buttpad on it at first, until he's got some basic trigger control.

I was thinking I'd just use off-the-shelf 3006 ammo at first - but is there any of the Korean 06 ammo still around, and is it worth shooting at the beginner level?

And don't go knockin' 1903s, I have a religious awe for them!
 
nonsense,

Glad you found a rifle....

Re ammo... The M1 has "issues" here. The gas system is a bit tender on the M1. It is designed to be used only with ammo leaving a gas port pressure in a very narrow range. As long as you stay in this range you will do fine. Use ammo with gas port presure too low and you get short strokes and FTF's (not usually a problem unless you handload and get on the "short end"). Shoot ammo with too high gas port pressure and you can affect accuracy by "twanging" the long slender op-rod. You can even cause the op-rod to bend or break. Worst case scenario... a cracked out receiver heel, due to battering by an over-accellerated bolt & op-rod.

Shoot ONLY USGI M2 spec ammo in an M1. DON'T shoot "off the shelf" commercial hunting ammo.

Korean M2 is good, as is Danish military. The CMP sells USGI Lake City ball, good stuff, and the "word" is that the CMP is getting in some HUGE lot of Greek "HXP" milsurp 30-06 in the very near future. This is reported by guys who've shot it in the past to be great ammo.... boxer primed and non-corrosive.

If you MUST shoot commercial ammo, stick with the FMJ loads... i.e. Fed Am-Eagle, Winchester White box, or Rem-UMC yellow box. Some of these are SUPPOSED to be at or near M2 spec.

Wups.... almost forgot. Some of the Korean is corrosive, the KA headstamp for sure. The PS is supposed to be non-corrosive. Be sure to clean appropriately....

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever
 
The CMP sells USGI Lake City ball, good stuff, and the "word" is that the CMP is getting in some HUGE lot of Greek "HXP" milsurp 30-06 in the very near future.
Click to expand...

Thanks again! I'm a member of my state association (TSRA), but haven't participated in a high-power match yet, so I don't think I'm eligible to buy from CMP, am I?

Do you know where I can order proper 3006 surplus ammo online?


Shoot ONLY USGI M2 spec ammo in an M1. DON'T shoot "off the shelf" commercial hunting ammo.
Click to expand...

I ordered 10 boxes of S&B FMJ to get started - is this OK? I'll hold off on hunting round use for now. (However, don't some people take M1s out deer hunting?? What do they use?)
 
participated in a high-power match yet, so I don't think I'm eligible to buy from CMP, am I?
Click to expand...

There is a whole list of things that qualify you for the marksmanship requirement. I got it on a pistol permit, and my hunters safety would have also worked.
 
Thanks again! I'm a member of my state association (TSRA), but haven't participated in a high-power match yet, so I don't think I'm eligible to buy from CMP, am I?
Click to expand...

YOu can buy ammo, but not rifles........

Do you know where I can order proper 3006 surplus ammo online?
Click to expand...

AIM Surplus sells the Korean...

I ordered 10 boxes of S&B FMJ to get started - is this OK? I'll hold off on hunting round use for now. (However, don't some people take M1s out deer hunting?? What do they use?)
Click to expand...

Sorry, don't have any info on the S&B. S&B makes fine ammo, but I just don't have any idea if their '06 is suitable for the M1.

Re hunting with M1.... those that do either handload or are taking the risks that I described in a previous post.

Best,
Swampy

Garands forever
 
There's a lot of controversy surrounding current commercial ammunition in M1 Garands. M2 ball is rated at around 2700-2770 fps. All the commercial 150gr FMJ I've seen is rated at 2900fps out of a 24" barrel (same length as Garand). But people claim they use Federal AE and Winchester to no ill effect.

Someone emailed Federal about their American Eagle ammunition and was told that AE ammo isn't recommended (posted on CMP).

You should understand that the penalty for using ammo that is 'too hot' for the M1 is that you will damage the op rod. Op rods are replaceable, but they are not cheap.

At this point in time, I shoot US Lake City surplus from the CMP. I clocked LC67 out of my HRA with an LMR barrel:

2650
2647
2642
2673
2626
2624
2706
2663

I'm a fairly new Garand owner so I haven't started reloading for it yet, but I anticipate loading somewhere around the 2650fps range with 4895 or 4064.

I'd recommend getting the LC surplus from the CMP. It's $230 shipped for 960 rounds and you get great brass. Just be sure to get a primer pocket swager.
 
The CMP sells new Federal 150gr ammo but from what I understand it is loaded to M2 specs, it's not the comercial loads. I think this is the ammo they use at their Garand matches. You might want to call them and check.
 
The ROTC probably uses M1's because that's what the CMP sent them. I would expect that they shoot using NRA Highpower or CMP rules. Either way, the AR is in the Service Rifle category (and the best option IMO). There are very few competitions where the AR is not permitted (CMP John C Garand & Springfield sactioned matches--very specific events).

FWIW, The M1903/03A3 isn't a Service Rifle under NRA Highpower or CMP rules. Only M1/M14/AR rifles.

Ty
 
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