First Gun Sig 220 Elite Stainless, or 220ST? Buying this week, please help!

[Jsig29]

Hey guys,

First let me say, I went through 98 pages of threads trying to find the answer to my question, and haven't found a solid answer, but I learned a great deal from you all. If you can help, I would appreciate it very much!

I'm looking to finally purchase my first handgun. I have been shooting for a while, but always lived in NYC where its impossible to have a handgun. Now I have a residence in FL, where almost anything is legal, so I've been doing some testing at the range with a Glock 21, Springfield XD-45, Kimber 1911 and a standard Sig P220. After shooting a few rounds, I knew that was the gun for me. The comfort, accuracy, solid contraction, basically everything about the gun sold me on itself. After holding a P220 Elite Stainless at the range's store, I have narrowed my selection down to a P220 Elite Stainless, primarily because the weight of the SS will allow for better accuracy, due to lessened recoil. Also, its quite beautiful (minus the rosewood grips; gorgeous, just not my style), and I love the beaver tail. Here's the ONLY negative thing about it… $1,200 !!!! I have no problem paying this if you guys really do say that its worth it over the P220ST, I just need some expert (non salesman) advice on this.
While on gunbroker I came across this deal from a local GS in South Florida: Sig Sauer P220 .45Acp Stainless NiB (2734) 45 : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com . It's a P220 Stainless, with a buyitnow for $860, which means I would be able to get the gun, at most for $800. For a $400 difference, it makes me think twice about the elite stainless!
Thanks to all of you, I have found the differences from a 220ST to a 220ES to be the beavertail, SRT, front serrations, grips, etc. Is there anything else? I have no idea how that beavertail feels while being shot, but holding it felt nice. Keep in mind, the standard 220 I fell in love with after shooting 100 rounds in it, did not, hence my contemplating the 220ST.
So obviously my first question so far is your recommendation on the regular stainless, or the Elite Stainless. When was the Stainless discontinued and the Elite Stainless introduced?
Secondly, I would like to replace the grips the day I get the gun, and was thinking about getting the equinox grips, however, after reading the forums, I see that the color spectrum is immense. I personally would like the closest to dark grey/black I can get. Perhaps I would be best with black alum. grips, or plastic? The P220 I shot at the range had rubber Hogue grips, so I'm not sure how I will like wood, let alone alum. Your recommendations are most appreciated. If i go with the Elite Stainless, and anyone wants to buy the rosewood grips (after I post pics so you can see the grain), let me know. Also, I read on here that ordering equinox looking grips from Nill or Atlamont is the way to go, rather than ordering them from my Sig dealer; Is there a place online that you can order these from?
Lastly, I would like to thank all of you for taking the time out to read my ridiculously long post. I just want to make sure I make the right decision on such a large purchase. If you guys have anything else you want to mention, please feel free to add that in, any and all comments are welcomed/appreciated. I look forward to speaking to you guys in the forums and learning! BTW if anyone is in South Florida and has meets or something, let me know. Be safe! -Jay

 

[David E]

As to "Meets," go to www.uspsa.org or www.idpa.com and utilze their "club finder" feature. Florida has plenty of clubs in both disciplines.

As to gun, if YOU think the one is worth the extra or you just plain shoot it better, then pay the bucks and get it. If you think it's the better gun for you and DON'T buy it, everytime you shoot the "other gun," you'll wish it was the one you passed on....and you won't remember the reason why.

 

[9mmepiphany]

there is alot of wisdom to what David E says about whichever gun you think is better.

having said that, let me offer this:

the 220 Elite was meant to replaced the ST in the Sig line. the big differences were the beavertail (which i think was overdone) and the SRT (which i have safety issues with). Sig did not discontinue the ST line so that they could continue to sell a stainless framed 220 in CA.

i actually bought a 220ST and i'm having a smaller beavertail and magwell added and the reset reduced while maintaining the functionality of all the factory safeties....along with an action tune and new sights

i was able to find a LE trade-in CPO 220ST for about $600...i think they are stll available in the $650-700 range

 

[Jsig29]

9mm,

Thanks for your reply, I truly appreciate you explaining the differences. The shop that is selling the 200ST has an elite as well and told me the only difference was the "shade of the stainless steel". Clearly he has no idea what he's talking about. I was actually wondering how big of difference there is from SRT and non SRT. I'm actually starting to wonder if the extended beavertail on the elite would even make a difference, considering no one has had issues with gripping the standard 220 high.

 

[9mmepiphany]

there is actually quite a difference in the reset difference between a SRT and non-SRT pistol. the SRT came into existence because Sig was trying to compete for a LE contract with the S&W 4006 which has a very short factory reset.

a more practical matter is your ability to take advantage of the shorter reset, if you aren't at the stage of being able to accurately place shots with splits under .5 sec, it becomes more of a nice to have than a must have...we're talking about 2-3 shots per sec. with accurracy.

what a beavertail does for you on a Sig 220, besides looking cool, is help with consistent placement of your hand when taking a "master grip" during a fast presentation from the holster...it lets you know when you have it right, because you can fell it.

the beavertail isn't meant to protect your hand from the recoiling slide...the slide is too far away

 

[Jsig29]

thanks again for another great reply. At the range, while shooting the standard black P220, the first thing I noticed was how close the trigger is to the frame when shooting, and how small the pull length is. This had to be a SRT correct? Is there anything else about these two guns you think I should take note of when making my purchase? I appreciate all the help! Thanks!

 

[David E]

a more practical matter is your ability to take advantage of the shorter reset, if you aren't at the stage of being able to accurately place shots with splits under .5 sec, it becomes more of a nice to have than a must have...we're talking about 2-3 shots per sec. with accurracy.

NEVER dismiss an item or feature that allows you to operate the gun better. The SRT on a Sig is required in my book. (Personally, I'd also insist on the short trigger option as well, but that's a hand fit issue.)

If you accept 'lesser gear,' for example, you'll fight it every step of the way. Let's make the gear a holster. I've heard people say that "Fobus is fine, I've never had a problem." That's code for, "I suck soooo bad that I don't know how bad I suck."

The other argument is, "I'll wait until I'm 'good' before I buy a good holster." (or get the SRT feature) The fact is, you won't become 'good' until a point farther down the line from where that point would've been had you been utilizing the improved feature or gear from the very beginning.

Taking the holster example, by the time you realize that it's not doing this or that "right," and that you've actually been fighting the holster this whole time, you'll almost immediately also comtemplate, "I wonder how much better I'd be NOW if I'd used a better holster from the start?"

 

[Jsig29]

David, I agree. I have made that mistake many times in the past. I have bought things that I considered a good "learning" level, to find its harder to go from that to what I wanted in the first place. Speaking of holsters, what are some good IWB, or conceal holsters you recommend? I want something that is practical to use at the range for practicing from the holstered position. Also, I fear that having a beavertail may affect me negatively when I purchase other guns, in the sense that if the other guns don't have it, I will be so used to having it, it may take a long time to get used to it. Is this how it is, or is the beavertail simply something nice to have, comparable to a nice set of wheels on a car. BTW, in response to what you said about the short trigger and hand fit, I have small-medium hands. Would I benefit from the short trigger option? Thanks for your help.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you accept 'lesser gear,' for example, you'll fight it every step of the way

i can except that to a certain degree, but there are certain refinements that can actually hinder shooter development.

if you start with a tuned trigger with a very crisp and light break, you'll find it much harder to learn to properly "prep the trigger" for a quicker 2nd shot...more than likely you'll learn to just slap the trigger...like a lot of 1911 shooter do. you'll also never learn the advantages of a "rolling break"

if you start out shooting 3-dot night sights (which i personally consider a handicap...but a subject for a different thread) rather than with plain blade sights...you'll never shoot quite as well, because you'll look for the dots before recognizing the alignment and light.

back to the 220. while what you were shooting might have been a SRT equiped 220, the distance from takeup to break isn't the affected area/distance.

reset is the distance from trigger break back out (toward the front of the trigger guard) to the point where the trigger resets ...where you can start rearward movement again and take up the slack to the break point getting ready for the next shot.

the shoter the distance you need to move the trigger forward, the less you'll need to move it back before you're ready for the next shot. many people release the trigger completely before starting back for the next shot...they'll never see the benefit of a short reset

 

[David E]

The all-stainless beavertail can be taken down to look like it left the factory that way.

Milt Sparks makes some very good holsters.

 

[David E]

if you start with a tuned trigger with a very crisp and light break, you'll find it much harder to learn to properly "prep the trigger" for a quicker 2nd shot...more than likely you'll learn to just slap the trigger...like a lot of 1911 shooter do.

The tuned trigger would be easier and faster to learn. I don't see that as a bad thing. As far as slapping the trigger, there's a guy named Robbie something that does pretty well doing it that way.

I do agree that there are many "enhancements" that are stupid and do actually hinder shooter progress. Just the other day, a gunsmith showed me an XD-m he'd received into the shop that had a good looking magwell on it. He handed me the gun and mag and said, "do a reload." I did and the mag got stuck just inside the magwell. The owner never had the bottom of the frame opened up, defeating 99% of the magwell's purpose and creating sloppy reload habits in the process.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Speaking of holsters, what are some good IWB, or conceal holsters you recommend? I want something that is practical to use at the range for practicing from the holstered position.

i don't CCW with an IWB anymore because if back issues...but when i did, i used to carry a 1911 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special. i still think Sparks makes a cutting edge IWB holster in the VM II

for range work and when teaching, i like the Blackhawk CQC Serpa paddle holster. it's fast, secure and easy on the pocketbook.

for CCW:
in polymer: i like the Comp-Tac adjustable Cant paddle holster as it keeps the gun high and tight to the body
in leather: i like the Alessi ACP or Alessi CQC/s

leather is somewhere you really don't want to scrimp, you pretty much get what you pay for...the problem is that not all holster will fit people the same and the only way to determine what will work for you is trial and error

 

[9mmepiphany]

As far as slapping the trigger, there's a guy named Robbie something that does pretty well doing it that way.

i know Robbie too and i'm reminded that you can get away with a lot when when you're using a heavy compensated, red dot equipped gun with just a couple of pounds needed on the trigger. but i'm also pretty sure that he didn't slap his trigger during an accuracy game like the Bianchi Cup.

 

[Jsig29]

Do you think as a beginner spending 2x in the range a week learning/honing my gunwork the night sights, beaver tail, or srt will hurt me in the long run in not being trained properly? Seems to me it's like learning to ride a motorcycle before a bicycle.

 

[9mmepiphany]

it is extremely important to learn to shoot correctly from the beginning, otherwise you'll develope habits you'll have to correct later...although you might just be lucky and do everything correctly it's much harder to unlearn something than to learn it correctly.

after you've learned gun safety, you're next goal should be a class that teaches the fundamentals of grip, stance, trigger control, etc.

riding a motor cycle before a bike is taking a tactical or self defense shooting class before being able to hit the target quickly, accurately and continuously by feeding the platform

which part of the country do you live in?

 

[Jsig29]

I completely agree. I have the fundamentals down SOMEWHAT, but have not had proper instruction. The range offers a 4 hour intro to handgun class, which I plan on taking asap, as it is important to learn the right way first, and also because its a prerequisite to get a CC license. I live in South Florida.

 

[9mmepiphany]

here's a little something you might find useful

go to www.GrayGunsTraining.com

go to the last tab at the top of the page labels Dry Fire Packet

ping the link and the packet will be sent to your e-mail

if you understand it (not a given) and practice (even less of a given) your shooting really will inprove.

i'm not being a smartass, when we run classes we ask everyone to download the packet and at least become familiar with it...if we're lucky, we get a 30% compliance

they haven't decided on next years classes, but it think one is coming to Orlando FL...in case you might be interested

 

[Jsig29]

9mm,

thanks once again for some great info. I just skimmed through the packet(I'll get to it in detail tomorrow), to say the least, it's basically everything the range goes over. Of course nothing is as good as hands on, but I feel this will really help me know what to do prior to taking the class, or better yet using the gun itself. From an instructors POV, is the 220 elite stainless a good choice? I would like to get something that is quality, and will last me forever, with good maintainence of course. I just want to make sure that a regular 220 would behoove me in the long run. Your thoughts as always are much appreciated. Thanks for linking the packet as well. I'll be sure to check out of they are coming to Orlando as well.

 

[9mmepiphany]

either gun will will last you forever...they really are that solid

if either one has an external extractor, it's one less thing to worry about. some of the stainless slide models had some internal extractor issues...it doesn't apply to the older folded slide models

i don't have the option of an Elite as i'm in CA...but then Sig has kept the ST in production just for us, so everyone wins.

i've seldom found anyone unhappy if they've bought an Elite...folks who don't like the beavertail just don't buy them

i happen to like forward serrations, but it's a personal thing and using them really isn't a very wise idea...there are safer ways to chamber rounds or to check your chamber

you have to go with what you'd be happier with...so you have to weigh features vs. price. the features of the Elite certainly aren't wasted if you like them.

i wouldn't buy a 220 Elite (i can't anyway), but i am having many of it's features added to a 220ST...same but in a different way different. at the same time i have another 220ST, which i've kept completely stock, which i teach with...and i have a alloy framed 220 which i used to carry as a duty gun.

here's a picture of the STs, when i first got them

 

[m2steven]

I would go with whichever you like, however I purchased an X-5 last week, stainless and it's beautiful. The Elite Stainless is just as lovely regardless of the model. Go Elite.