First handgun - load advice

[ericp1]

I just acquired first handgun. Until now my defense was martial arts, but age and spinal degeneration have made that less effective.
I have shot about 500 pistol rounds at range and taken three courses.

Since there were occasional jams with semi, I opted for revolver for night stand. May later add semi as backup in case 5 rounds does not do it. I HOPE I am better than that. NC concealed class has 10 rounds at each of a3/5/7 yards with a pass of 21/30. I was 30/30 with nothing outside 9 ring. My hallways is conveniently 7 yards long.

Handgun purchased is a Ruger SP101 3 inch stainless - reputedly one of the more accurate .357 in that barrel range. Added Hogue grips as I have big hands. May consider laser sight. Acquired speed loader strips and aluminum snap caps so that I can do lots of not-live-ammo practice.

Question is on the load.
First range session will be 50 rounds .38 ball to get feel for gun and loosen it up. This will be followed by 5 rounds .38+P, then 4x.38P+ 1 'Hail Mary' .357. If all goes well, may try 5x.357.


I have heard that .357 muzzle flash can impair sight in a dark room, so my proposed 'night load' is 4x a good .38+P like Glaser or Hornady Critical Defense, and 1x the nastiest .357 I can find. If range results show I recover slowly with .357, will have night load = day load. If range results show I am okay with .357, day load will be 5x.357.

Please forgive my newbie pistol ignorance. I am a beast with a 12 gauge, but new to handgun. As for recoil with shotgun, I am good from 9 birdshot to 1 buckshot, but have not shot the 000-0 buck or slugs so do not know.


Follow up questions:
1) For .357 'Hail Mary', what is best available stopper?
2) For 4x .38+P, ditto.
3) What is the cheapest reasonably accurate .38 Special ball/wadcutter ammo for range practice.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's a good gun and a good plan.

Any muzzle flash will blind you in a indoor night firing. The thing that hurts me most to think about, is how LOUD that revolver will be indoors. If there is anything louder in a closed room than a heavy revolver load, right now I can't think of it.

I am not at all a fan of mixing loads. There is no reason to think that there are varying levels of necessity, or that one is less deadly than another. I would decide on the best round and stick with it.

I do not like frangible ammo like Glaser. It has so little penetration as to make it an unreliable stopper. The whole point of using .357 mag is to get MORE penetration than a .38. You're taking that away in using Glasers.

Hornady CD is a perfectly good defensive round, but I don't buy into the idea that cloth clogging hollowpoints is a widespread problem, or that the nylon plug is more or less likely to prevent it than with any other defensive round. But like I say....it's probably as good as any other defensive JHP load.

I would use the Federal HST.

Is there a reason you wouldn't just use the shotgun if you know you can use it well?

 

[ericp1]

mldheckard,

Actually instinct trained so far at home would be the 12ga with .357 on waist.
In addition to the huge stopping power, there is the fear factor. Creeps who might brave a handgun really fear shotgun. 6x12ga #4 buck @7yd makes a mell of a hess.

I like the Federal HST idea.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[tarosean]

have heard that .357 muzzle flash can impair sight in a dark room

here is a good example.. Its all about the ammo/powder

 

[9mmepiphany]

I also don't recommend mixing different loadings, as you can't predict the progression of need.

More than anything else, shot placement will be critical. What you load with should be based on how well you can place shots where you need them and how quickly you can do it repeatedly.

I've had very good accuracy and control out of short barreled revolvers with the Speer 135gr +P Gold Dot. Besides being soft shooting, the muzzle flash is minimal.

The .357Mag loading with the best street record of performance in LE shootings has long been a 125gr JHP. It can be controlled for followup shots with some practice. The fireball that comes out the barrel when you light one off is very impressive. I'm pretty old school and still load my .357Mags with Speer 140gr JHP.

For home defense, you'd be a lot better off with speed loaders than with speed strips...they load about three times faster

 

[sidheshooter]

I'm a big fan of the SP101. Wish it held more ammo, but that's the only shortcoming.

There are a number of proven loads that fit the bill; mine has buffalo bore's very hot .38 loading-158 gr LSWCHP +P in it at the moment. I'd choose whatever reputable defense round by a major manufacturer you can get a stock of that shoots to POA in your gun.

I'm not a fan of the old 125 SJHP; too blasty, to flashy. Remington's medium velocity golden saber would be fine, as would be the .357 version of the 135 GDHP mentioned by 9mmepi, above. I am also very fond of winchester 145gr Silvertips, old school though the load may be.

Hard to go wrong with any reputable round that says .357 on one end and is hollow pointed on the other (to paraphrase Clint Smith). Don't be afraid to trade raw power for controllability; the .357 can afford to be generous with a hundred fps here or there.

Oh, and ditch the Glasers. You'd be better off spending the extra money on beer or scotch (unless you're in recovery, in which case you'd still be slightly better off...)


JMO.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

ericp1,
Welcome to the forum.

I know you're new to this but I also feel you are over thinking it all. Like said above, don't mix loads. Hit what you shoot at and you will have done well. Also, the best ammo for your gun is the ammo you shoot best. The best ammo in the world will do you no good unless you make good hits. Don't fall into the trap of all the Blah Blah Blah on the Internet.

Good luck finding practice ammo these days although it seems things are easing up just a little. Practice as much as possible and practice well. Most of all enjoy shooting, it's not always about SD...

 

[TestPilot]

If I am stuck with a revolver, there is no way I would give up a 357 Magnum for any 38Special just because of muzzle flash.

Generally, if it is bright enough to see your target, the muzzle flash is not going to be bright enough to "blind" you.''

I conducted searches at night in and out of military. And, I can tell you from experince that when most people talk about "It's gonna kill your night vision" they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Moment you flip on a light switch or your 60+ lumen flashlight, or drove to the operation site under street lights and have been seeing the glare of headlights of on coming vehicle, there is no "night vision" to speak of.

The blast can be somewhat distracting, especially if you are not familiar with it, but it's not particularly the flash. The shock wave do hit your face, although you may not be conscious of it, and cause distraction. That is associated with higher power ammo, and it occurrs day or night.

Well known gun fighter Jim Cirillo used revolvers, and he advocated powerful bullets. Although he used 38 Specials in his revolvers, that's because it was the NYPD approved ammo. He complained a lot about the particular 38 Special load NYPD issued at the time of his service.

 

[hariph creek]

As already mentioned...

I don't like Glaser, or other frangible ammo, for SD.

I oppose mixed loads. You don't have shots to spare. Use the most effective round, for each shot. You may not be able to get to the fifth. Also different loads usually have different points of impact.

If you've only got 5 rounds? I'd want the most effective 5 rounds possible. If you survive a situation requiring a hand gun? You can worry about recoil, noise and flash, later. I doubt you'll notice much at the time.

Critical Defense is a perfectly suited round, for your purposes. So would be Speer Gold Dot "Short Barrel" loads. As are several others.

I don't question you choosing a revolver. That's all a matter of personal choice. Gives you the option of nice soft .38's for fun at the range.
If this is just for home defense and not concealed carry? Why limit yourself to a compact revolver?
A full size will; have a better trigger, handle recoil better, fit your big hand better, and hold more ammo. Plus a 4"-6" barrel would optimize the performance of .357 magnum. If you like Rugers? A 4"-6" GP100 would fit the bill.
If you do plan on using this for HD & CC? A 3" SP101 is a great all around gun.
I have and have had many handguns. If I could have only one? 3" .357 mag, no question.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

As visually demonstrated earlier, muzzle flash and flash from the cylinder gap on a revolver are not a function of caliber, but usually mostly powder selection and then a bit also barrel length. Many premium ammunition makers load their high-end JHP ammo with flash-retarded powders for much decreased muzzle flash. Longer barrels will also exhibit a bit less muzzle flash, since less unburned powder is being blown out of the barrel- though this is again load dependant.

 

[BSA1]

I don't understand the .357 day load and .38 night load concept.

Are criminals that commit crimes during the day tougher than criminals that commit crimes at night?

Actually the reverse is true. More crimes are committed at night by drug/alcohol fueled criminals. They can be much harder to stop hence more arguably the need for a powerful round.

There is a school of thought that bullet placement with reasonably powerful handgun is more important than sheer velocity and caliber. Best advice is find a round that you can shoot comfortably and accurately and stick with it 24/7.

 

[Jim Watson]

My interest in small frame revolver defense ammunition pretty well starts with the 158 grain lead hollowpoint "FBI load" and ends with the 135 grain Speer Gold Dot "short barrel load." And nothing in between.

I find the recoil of magnums in anything that small to be unnerving and the frequent Internet recommendations to load target wadcutters and depend on "shot placement" unconvincing.

Of course these days, it is more what you can find than what you would like.

 

[rcmodel]

And last but not least?

When you switch over from shooting .38 Spl you need to thoroughly clean the chambers with a bronze bore brush & solver before shooting the longer .357 Magnums.

rc

 

[PabloJ]

PS. The five-shot revolver is most useful for pocket carry with light frame/short barrel configuration. When equipped with laser grips it makes dandy ankle carry BUP, but here 101 would be heavy and 3" barrel very rough on the ankle bone with suitable holsters hard to find for this barrel length. Your choice of weapon put you on the "bottom of the class", sorry.

Load advice .38special 158gr +P 'FBI-type' still loaded by Winchester, Remington (and Federal?). The 158gr Hornady JHP load is also excellent giving excellent accuracy, low to moderate recoil (depending on firearm) and low flash signature.

 

[s4s4u]

Are criminals that commit crimes during the day tougher than criminals that commit crimes at night?

Well said. The only real difference between 357 Mag and 38 Special +P at typical SD distances is how far the bullet will fly after exiting the target. Why put up with more recoil, noise and muzzle flash than necessry?

 

[TestPilot]

The only real difference between 357 Mag and 38 Special +P at typical SD distances is how far the bullet will fly after exiting the target. Why put up with more recoil, noise and muzzle flash than necessry?

How did you arrive at the conclusion that no more than 38 is necessary?

GIGN used revolvers extensively, and they use 357 Magnum.
NAVY SEALs used S&W 686 in 357 Magnum.

357 Mangum has a solid reputation while many 38 Special loads plain suked and even modern loads only just managed to make it better and never had the enough chance to prove it on the streets since the self loaders took over the majority.

Even the most modern 38 Special just barely managed to get close but yet fail to be as powerful or fast as 9mm even in +P loadings which makes expansion questionable for me. 125gr +P 38 Special in Speer GDHP loading is even slower than 147 gr 9mm.

Some complains about recoil, but it has more to do with the weight of the gun. I hate shooting 38 Special out of an M642. I would not even dream of shooting a 357 out of a gun of that weight, but 357 Magnum was pretty pleasant to shoot from a GP100.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If I am stuck with a revolver, there is no way I would give up a 357 Magnum for any 38Special just because of muzzle flash.

Generally, if it is bright enough to see your target, the muzzle flash is not going to be bright enough to "blind" you.''

I conducted searches at night in and out of military. And, I can tell you from experince that when most people talk about "It's gonna kill your night vision" they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Moment you flip on a light switch or your 60+ lumen flashlight, or drove to the operation site under street lights and have been seeing the glare of headlights of on coming vehicle, there is no "night vision" to speak of.

The blast can be somewhat distracting, especially if you are not familiar with it, but it's not particularly the flash. The shock wave do hit your face, although you may not be conscious of it, and cause distraction. That is associated with higher power ammo, and it occurrs day or night.

Well known gun fighter Jim Cirillo used revolvers, and he advocated powerful bullets. Although he used 38 Specials in his revolvers, that's because it was the NYPD approved ammo. He complained a lot about the particular 38 Special load NYPD issued at the time of his service.

You don't shoot revolvers, do you? What you are spouting about 38/357 ammo is what you read on the Internet, right?

Then you tell a story about Jim Cirillo but tell us he was using .38 Special ammo. Yes he complained but his complaints were not about the power of the .38 Special but the bullet being used in that ammo. The LRN bullet was called the widow maker and for good reasons. Better bullets make for better ammo and the current crop of bullets in production and used in current SD ammo are very good at what they are supposed to do.

Please stop propagating false assumptions about ammo just because that's what you hear on the Internet. Contrary to popular beliefs everything you hear in the Internet is NOT true.

BTW, live ammo is not a bullet. The bullet is what comes out of the barrel when the cartridge is fired.

 

[s4s4u]

38 Special +P at typical SD distances

Read the fine print TP

 

[ArchAngelCD]

How did you arrive at the conclusion that no more than 38 is necessary?

GIGN used revolvers extensively, and they use 357 Magnum.
NAVY SEALs used S&W 686 in 357 Magnum.

357 Mangum has a solid reputation while many 38 Special loads plain suked and even modern loads only just managed to make it better and never had the enough chance to prove it on the streets since the self loaders took over the majority.

Even the most modern 38 Special just barely managed to get close but yet fail to be as powerful or fast as 9mm even in +P loadings which makes expansion questionable for me. 125gr +P 38 Special in Speer GDHP loading is even slower than 147 gr 9mm.

Some complains about recoil, but it has more to do with the weight of the gun. I hate shooting 38 Special out of an M642. I would not even dream of shooting a 357 out of a gun of that weight, but 357 Magnum was pretty pleasant to shoot from a GP100.

More propaganda and internet lore. We are not playing video games here, some of this is real life.

 

[PabloJ]

Well said. The only real difference between 357 Mag and 38 Special +P at typical SD distances is how far the bullet will fly after exiting the target. Why put up with more recoil, noise and muzzle flash than necessry?

I would guess loss of about 250fps from same gun in this barrel length range.

 

[golden]

Work your way up

Eric,

The way I would go is to start with standard .38 Special load. It could be 158 round nose lead or the 130 full metal jacket white box loads. These are pretty generic and you should not have any problem with them. Shoot a standardized qualification drill so that you can see how the loads effect your shooting.
Try 5 rounds, single handed at 3 yards. Then a double tap (two quick, aimed shots ) and a triple tap with a two handed grip at 7 yards and repeat at either 10 or 15 yards, depending on your skill level.
When you get to an ammo that is too much for you, back down to the previous level until you develop enough skill to try hotter ammo again.

Then try a .38 Special 125 grain jacketed hollow point + P load. REMINGTON sells them in 50 and 100 round boxes and WINCHESTER sells this load in white box ammo at WALMART, that you can buy for a reasonable amount. If you can keep all your shots in the target with the qualification drill you choose, you are good to go up to a low recoil .357 magnum load.

I use the 110 grain jacketed hollow point WINCHESTER white box load. It is inexpensive, so I can practice with it and I would use it as a carry load.
The recoil is not that much heavier than the .38 Special +P ammo and to me, it is the same as the 158 grain lead hollow point + P ammo that is often called the FBI load.
Given a choice, I would go with the 110 grain .357 over the 158 grain .38 Special + P. Both are effective, but the 110 grain is usually more effective.
This load has a flash and can be load, but it is not that bad. My agency carried 110 grain FEDERAL hollow points for many years and never had any problems with it.

The top of the line with the .357 magnum is the 125 jacketed hollow point. These loads can be hard at both ends. The brightest flash I ever saw in a handgun that I was shooting was with the 125 grain load. The recoil is noticeably stronger than the 110 grain ammo and so is the muzzle blast and noise.
On the other hand, it also hits harder and has a better record in gun fights than any other revolver load. I carried this in my S&W 681, an L frame gun. My agency forbid us to use it in the S&W model 13 revolvers we were issued at the time. The smaller K-frames had burst from this load.

The SP101 is a strong little gun, so you should not have any problems with the ammo, but the recoil will grow as you go up the ladder and so will the noise, muzzle blast and flash.

I recommend that you shoot up to your comfort level and stick with the most powerful load that does not cause your qualification scores to deteriorate.

good luck,

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Gee, I hate to post for fear of being accused of posting "internet lore" but just about all that muzzle flash comes from excess powder being burned OUTSIDE the barrel, in other words doing nothing at all to increase velocity or power. The loads with heavy bullets show less flash because the heavy bullets have greater mass and move more slowly, plus the powder charge is lower, so the powder is burned in the chamber and barrel rather than outside the barrel. (There are also low-flash powders but right now it is hard enough to get any powder, so I won't suggest that approach.)

Jim

 

[Fremmer]

How bout you try 3 or 4 different jhp rounds in .38 and .357 and see what shoots the most accurately through your gun, and then decide which caliber you prefer to use.

 

[TestPilot]

You don't shoot revolvers, do you? What you are spouting about 38/357 ammo is what you read on the Internet, right?

Then you tell a story about Jim Cirillo but tell us he was using .38 Special ammo. Yes he complained but his complaints were not about the power of the .38 Special but the bullet being used in that ammo. The LRN bullet was called the widow maker and for good reasons. Better bullets make for better ammo and the current crop of bullets in production and used in current SD ammo are very good at what they are supposed to do.

Please stop propagating false assumptions about ammo just because that's what you hear on the Internet. Contrary to popular beliefs everything you hear in the Internet is NOT true.

More propaganda and internet lore. We are not playing video games here, some of this is real life.

GIGN and NAVY SEAL's selection of 357 Magnum has nothing to do with them playing video games. But, may be someone on the internet whining about other people 's info in the internet, insinuating that his or her "blah" is somehow more credible than other people's "blah" knows what GIGN or NAVY SEALs don't about the awesomeness of 38 they somehow missed.

Is the kind of person who makes irradiational baseless accusation of other's info or experience he or she has no clue about, credible?

I have read all his books. If he thought 38 was enough and more is just a waste then it would not make much sense for him to develop his own 44 would it? When asked about the issue of overly powerful pistol, he stated that he would grab a powerful gun. I am away from home now, so I cannot reference his book at the moment, lucky for you.

 

[tarosean]

I have read all his books.

Is it fair to compare the needs of a elite hit squad member to your average Joe Blow citizen whom is not actively targeting criminals?