First It's Mexico, Now It's Jamaica

Status
Not open for further replies.

kingpin008

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,435
Location
Howard County, Merry Land
Heavens to Betsy, when will us gun-running Americans ever learn? :banghead:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090621/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_jamaica_gun_smuggling

Guns from America fuel Jamaica's gang wars
By MIKE MELIA, Associated Press Writer Mike Melia, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 50 mins ago

KINGSTON, Jamaica – Ships from Miami steam into Jamaica's main harbor loaded with TV sets and blue jeans. But some of the most popular U.S. imports never appear on the manifests: handguns, rifles and bullets that stoke one of the world's highest murder rates.

The volume is much less than the flow of U.S. guns into Mexico that end up in the hands of drug cartels — Jamaican authorities recover fewer than 1,000 firearms a year. But of those whose origin can be traced, 80 percent come from the U.S., Jamaican law enforcement officials have said in interviews with The Associated Press.

And as the Obama administration cracks down on smuggling into Mexico, Jamaicans fear even more firearms will reach the gangs whose turf wars plague the island of 2.8 million people.

"It's going to push a lot of that trade back toward the Caribbean like it was back in the '80s," said Vance Callender, an attache at the U.S. Embassy in Kingston for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

U.S. authorities are beginning to target the Jamaican gun-smuggling network as part of a broad effort to boost security in the Caribbean.

But they have a long way to go. Jamaican authorities have confiscated only 100 guns coming into ports in the last five years, along with 6,000 rounds of ammunition. That in turn is just a fraction of the 700 or so weapons confiscated on the streets each year.

Authorities know they're only seeing "the tip of the iceberg," said Mark Shields, Jamaica's deputy police commissioner.

With arsenals to rival police firepower, the gangs are blamed for 90 percent of the homicides in Jamaica — 1,611 last year, about 10 times more than the U.S. rate, relative to population.

Unlike in Mexico, the vast majority of Jamaican guns seized are submitted for tracing. Jamaica and the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives find most of the seized weapons come from three Florida counties — Orange, Dade and Broward — all with large Jamaican populations, according to Shields.

X-ray scanners were installed two years ago at Jamaican ports, but the gangs use bribery and intimidation to get their shipments past inspectors.

In April, a newly hired customs supervisor had his tires slashed and days later was shot at on his way home from work, authorities say. The man was known for his strict scrutiny of cargo coming into a gang-infiltrated warehouse on the Kingston wharf.

When the gangs apply pressure, "no one says no," said Danville Walker, Jamaica's commissioner of customs.

"It's a massive problem," said Leslie Green, a Jamaican assistant police commissioner. "There aren't any checks or any controls on goods leaving the United States. Yet anything leaving here, we have to make sure it's double-checked and tripled-checked for drugs."

This complaint — that Americans care only what comes in, not what goes out — echoes that of Mexican authorities, who say cars going from the U.S. into Mexico aren't searched for weapons or cash.

Now hundreds of agents are participating in a $95 million outbound inspection program, stopping suspicious-looking cars and trucks as they cross the border into Mexico. Authorities don't know how many firearms get through, but more than 12,000 guns used in crimes in Mexico last year were sent to U.S. authorities for tracing, a number that grows as more agencies in Mexico are trained to submit traces.

The U.S. and Jamaica both prohibit the unlicensed transport of guns. But like Mexican smugglers, Jamaican ones depend on lax U.S. gun laws, corrupt customs inspectors and front men acting as buyers.

Florida gun laws make it relatively easy to buy a legal firearm, and much of the smuggling is done by family and friends, said Shields, the Jamaican police official.

The guns are concealed in container loads of blue plastic and cardboard barrels, the kind Jamaicans use to send household goods to their families on the island.

Some shipping companies advertise a no-questions-asked policy in soliciting customers, said Walker, the customs commissioner. He declined to single out individual companies.

In one of the few Jamaican gun-smuggling cases prosecuted in the U.S., Tawanna Banton, 36, of Florida was convicted of buying a Glock handgun later used in the gang killings of four island police officers. She said her Jamaican boyfriend arranged the purchase, and she was paid $15,000 to buy the handgun and a .50 caliber "Grizzly" rifle with a tripod mount, according to court documents.

She told ATF agents the guns were then hidden inside kitchen appliances and driven to Miami for shipment to Kingston.

Banton pleaded guilty to making false statements to the gun dealer in 2006 and served a month in prison.

Besides coming in on freighters, authorities say, guns are stolen or purchased from crooked police or in "guns-for-ganja" deals by fishermen, who bring homegrown marijuana to nearby Haiti and return with pistols, revolvers and submachine guns — many of them believed to be from the U.S. as well.

Callender's ICE unit began investigations in Jamaica last year with a focus on guns. He said agents in Miami and New York have been working to "interject themselves" into the shipping networks. Indictments are imminent in two or three cases involving suspected Jamaican traffickers inside the U.S., he said, without elaborating.

Then there's the $45 million Caribbean Basin Security Initiative on regional security, announced by U.S. President Barack Obama in April, which is designed to help the islands counter any spillover of violence from Mexico.

Meanwhile, at the ports, Jamaican customs officials are training more spotters to patrol the warehouses, including five in Kingston who process an average of 10 shipping containers daily.

But inspectors feel the odds are still stacked against them.

"The guys we're up against, they have time, they have money, and they are very resourceful," said Andrew Lamb, a supervisor with Jamaica customs' Contraband Enforcement Team. "They're pretty good at what they do."
 
Banton pleaded guilty to making false statements to the gun dealer in 2006 and served a month in prison.

I wonder if this might be part of the problem??? :banghead:
 
I wonder if this might be part of the problem???

The problem is prohibition. It wouldn't have mattered if she had been executed instead. Someone else would have stepped right in to replace her the very next day.

The war on drugs is a war on many of our liberties... the right to keep and bear arms is one of them. Gun owners need to recognize that drug prohibition is bad for them. The violent crime that results from prohibition will continue to remain front page news, making it easier for antis to persuade others that this country should have more gun-control laws. It doesn't matter that gun control laws are counterproductive. The violence scares people, and they want SOMETHING to be done about it.

Many of us may not like the hippies and ravers and tweakers, but the truth is that their liberty is intertwined with ours.
 
But of those whose origin can be traced,

Notice they don't say how many can be traced, only that 80% of those that can be traced come from the US.

guns are stolen or purchased from crooked police

They just gloss over this point.

The U.S. and Jamaica both prohibit the unlicensed transport of guns.

So let's pass more laws that they can ignore.
 
But they have a long way to go. Jamaican authorities have confiscated only 100 guns coming into ports in the last five years, along with 6,000 rounds of ammunition. That in turn is just a fraction of the 700 or so weapons confiscated on the streets each year.

Authorities know they're only seeing "the tip of the iceberg," said Mark Shields, Jamaica's deputy police commissioner.

With arsenals to rival police firepower, the gangs are blamed for 90 percent of the homicides in Jamaica — 1,611 last year, about 10 times more than the U.S. rate, relative to population.

Letsseeherenow..........................

100 guns in 5 years =20/year
700 weapons/year= 1.92/day

(Helluva record, is it not?)

Would Bloomberg put up with this in NYC?

Seems if these banana republics such as Mexico and the above-mentioned would (or could) put on their big- boy pants the lawyers in our country might have to go back to old-fashioned ambulance chasing to make a living.:cool:
 
The problem seems pretty clear to me. Guns from the US are traceable, guns from other countries are not. Clearly we need to stop making ours traceable.

:neener::neener:
 
These statements about guns coming from America are a precursor of what's to come.
All the people who obtained CC permits to carry handguns under your coat,
or purchased handguns and or long rifles where a NICS check was performed
(or got a 'permission slip' by your local police/sheriff to buy a handgun)
will find out soon enough.

I predict soon we will get a ban on all handguns in the US.
People will have 30 days to turn them in to the local PD acting under authority of the BATFE.
What you gonna do when they already KNOW you have them?

If it's just handguns only they want, (at the first confiscation scheme)
are you going to lie to the BATFE when they come calling?
Remember, if you lie (they KNOW you have them) they may just come in
and take you and ALL your guns (probable cause to get a warrant)
and off to jail you go for NOT following the order to turn them in.

My opinion only, for what it's worth.
 
Would Bloomberg put up with this in NYC?

If there was a way to count all of the illegal guns in New York City, Jamaica might look good. Of course in NYC they pick up more, but they have a larger population to work with. The problem in both cases is that they are more focused on firearms then they are on criminals. If they were to deal forcefully with the criminal element the gun issue would go away. But in both places this isn't likely to happen. :banghead:
 
nice use of statistics

As was mentioned by a previous poster, they never day how many firearms came from the U.S.

They say that "of those that were traceable, 80% came from the U.S."

For all we know, 10 of those 1000 annually confiscated firearms were traceable. 80% of 10 is 8...so 8 U.S. guns are found in Jamica a year?

How big a deal is this compared to corrupt police and lax enforcement of regulations at ports? Fishermen bringing in guns from Haiti?

Come on, this is kind of rediculous.
 
If it's just handguns only they want, (at the first confiscation scheme)

At the present time there are likely enough handguns in the United States to give at least one to every man, woman and child living here. While fully functional handguns go back to the 1890's, we have only been dealing with 4473 forms since 1968.

But that isn't particularly important. What is, is that with this wide of a distribution no government that tried to enact a program of handgun (or for that matter any gun) confiscation would last beyond the next election - if that long. The present level of gun and ammunition sales make it clear that a substantial number of people are worried, and with the 2010 elections not far away a lot of office holders and House and Senate critters in Washington are worried about a 1994 style backlash. There are some that would love to do what you suggest, but they are just spinning their wheels.

If anything, an attempt to regulate (not confiscate) EBR’s is more likely, but not probable. The Democrats don’t have enough votes in their own party to get it through the House.
 
These statements about guns coming from America are a precursor of what's to come.
All the people who obtained CC permits to carry handguns under your coat,
or purchased handguns and or long rifles where a NICS check was performed
(or got a 'permission slip' by your local police/sheriff to buy a handgun)
will find out soon enough.

I predict soon we will get a ban on all handguns in the US.
People will have 30 days to turn them in to the local PD acting under authority of the BATFE.
What you gonna do when they already KNOW you have them?

If it's just handguns only they want, (at the first confiscation scheme)
are you going to lie to the BATFE when they come calling?
Remember, if you lie (they KNOW you have them) they may just come in
and take you and ALL your guns (probable cause to get a warrant)
and off to jail you go for NOT following the order to turn them in.

This scenerio will lead to armed insurrection.

I do not see that as a desirable outcome from anyone's perspective.
 
Of course you do realize that American citizens are THE root cause of all that is evil in the world, right?
 
One for ganja

Two for crime

So Lock 'N Load

It's Cool Shootings Time!!!

Edited to add: So if da ganja were legalized in the US there would be far fewer Jamaican smuggling organizations within Florida, Jamaican gangs would have alot less solvency, demand for guns to use in crime related shootings would be quelled... but we would all turn into pot heads and all we would do is sit on our couches, watch bad TV and chew on junk food till we get overweight, while the economy plunges and... wait, isn't that the status quo already??
 
Last edited:
Old Fuff

I see you point/s.
I always forget that we can vote out any gun grabbers.
Hopefully that could happen before any confiscation scheme could take place.

It could happen though at any time, I believe, IF martial law was enacted.

For instance:
Simultaneous terrorist attacks across the country this summer would indeed create chaos and mayhem.
Maybe causing the admin to enact ML nation wide...
OR
A series of natural disasters or biological epidemics.
OR
Maybe some rouge country
or group sending a few nukes our way.

I know many would say:
It can't happen here.
But I say: It CAN.

I hope I'm wrong.

That leaves me with these questions:

Why do THEY want a list of who's got the guns?
How is it that they have successfully turned a RIGHT into a privilege?
(You must get 'permission' in the form of an CC permit to carry concealed,
or in my state, a 'permission slip' from LE to even purchase a hand gun at an FFL.)

highorder,

Your right
The scenario would lead to armed insurrection.
Or would it?
Seems to me a lot of people may just roll over out of fear of being arrested/incarcerated or killed defending their 2a rights.
 
Seems to me a lot of people may just roll over out of fear of being arrested/incarcerated or killed defending their 2a rights.

alot? Sure.

Remember the Revolution had something like 15% popular support.

If 10% of gun owners stood and fought, there would still be MILLIONS of citizens taking up arms.
 
T-Party Time

"Armed insurrection if......" And your problem with this is what?? Don't ask what you can do for the country (administration), ask what you can do for the Constitution (America.) "Cold, dead hands" need not answer. "...alter or abolish it," is the 4th sentence in the Constitution. Amen.
 
Jamaica has a special "Gun Court" that handles matters which are gun related and hands out swift sentences with far fewer checks and balances than regular criminal courts. Firearm possession in Jamaica is a major crime.
Gun Court requires no jury trial, and are tried in camera or in secret with no press coverage.
Mere possession of a firearm is often punished with large sentences. A sentence of life in prison with hard labor was the only possible legal sentence from 1976-1983.

gun_court2_ab.jpg


800px-
 
Last edited:
Runrabbitrun:

There are an awful lot of handguns, and even more rifles and shotguns, which were made before 1968; and there is no paper trail to them. In addition a lot of firearms made after 1968 have passed from hand to hand through private sales, and any paper trail has long disappeared. This is why the gun control movement wants to impose legislation to close what they call a "gun show loophole," because it would force private sellers and buyers to go through an FFL and "register" the gun on a #4473 form.

So as a mater of reality, even if they did - for whatever reason - declare martial law, there would be a substantial number of guns they'd have no way of finding to confiscate. That's the way the Founding Fathers intended it to be, and if they tried any such monkey business without the full support of our population those who were responsible would face unemployment after the second Tuesday in November 2010. :evil:
 
Iceland is next.

Then the Canary Islands.

Then Madagascar.
 
X-ray scanners were installed two years ago at Jamaican ports, but the gangs use bribery and intimidation to get their shipments past inspectors.
I fail to see how this is my problem. Man up and crack down on the gangs.

Hey, that sounds familiar.
 
The problem is prohibition.
Not necessarily. If they couldn't sell drugs they might start selling other stuff. Or, sell them legally, or even sell to nations where it is illegal.
It wouldn't have mattered if she had been executed instead. Someone else would have stepped right in to replace her the very next day.
I'm not saying execution, I'd say that if you face years in prison instead of a month for illegal arms trafficking less people will decide that it's worth it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top